Season 1 |
Bonus Episode 3: How to transform adversity into resistance capital
[00:00:00] RORI: Hi, Emilia!
[00:00:01] EMILIA: Hey Rori! Leti!
[00:00:03] RORI: Oh my gosh! Leti Marquez Magaña!
[00:00:06] EMILIA: I know!
[00:00:08] RORI: So amazing! And so funny! Why is she a scientist?
[00:00:12] EMILIA: Bugs Bunny!
[00:00:14] RORI: Like, little Leti, who's like, kept inside to be safe and watching hell of TV, and she's like, oh my god! Bugs Bunny makes science look fun, and like, you could make big changes!
That's for me!
[00:00:27] EMILIA: Yeah, well, whatever it takes. It's nice to see how people get inspiration from so many different things. I'm glad that science somehow gets into you one way or another.
[00:00:43] RORI: Well, welcome back listeners to another bonus episode. Today, Emilia and I are talking about some take-home lessons from our wonderful conversation with Dr. Leticia Marquez Magaña.
[00:00:55] EMILIA: Yeah, takeaways.
For me, one thing that I learned from Leti is how she, you know, she didn't have many mentors when she first started at SF State.
She was, I think the first female mentor arrived to SF State when she was a full professor. And so that means that she had to learn a lot of things through trial and error or just by being a good listener and having a good memory. And in order to make a good argument, she had to learn the rules of the system and work within them and recognize what are the things in the system that are valued and, you know, advocating for herself in those terms.
[00:01:36] RORI: Yeah, totally. And she had so many interesting examples at, you know, times when her choice wasn't the effective one and somebody else's was. Like, the time the student who was undocumented was wrongfully arrested and she and another faculty, Robert Ramirez, were you know, writing letters about the student's character and about his incredible science and everything.
And those, like, didn't have any effect. And then the student's white girlfriend said, you arrested him wrongfully. Police, you must release him now or I will sue you. And then he was released. I thought it was such a powerful learning moment that Leti was like, Oh, that's how this person with more privilege would argue, who understands what the police are worried about, what the police are valuing. And that's the argument that worked.
[00:02:25] EMILIA: Yeah. There was another story too, where she had to make an argument and the framework she used was getting promoted. Like how it was important for tenure, because that's something that the system recognizes. And of course, definitely learning from others who either already know the system or have the privilege of knowing the system.
[00:02:45] RORI: Yeah, you're right, Emilia. Leti even uses the term interest, interest convergence, which means if you want to get something done, if you want to make a change, it has to seem to be in the best interest of all the parties involved. So, Uh, in this case, if you are trying to make a change in how your academic system is working, then it needs to be clear to the dominant majority within that system why the change will benefit them as well.
But that's such a useful thing to keep in mind when you're trying to make these institutional changes that Leti has so much experience in.
[00:03:22] EMILIA: It feels like a really good strategy to find something or to somehow convince people that this is good for them too, so then they will allow things to happen.
[00:03:35] RORI: I mean, there is a little bit of a caveat, right though, Emilia, that, uh, you know, the same words coming from different people are received different ways.
So, for example, if a straight white man says something that's the same thing as what you or I might say, it might be received differently sometimes in a more friendly way, unfortunately, right?
[00:03:59] EMILIA: Yeah. And I suppose some people have the privilege of being better heard.
[00:04:04] RORI: Yeah. I mean, I think this gets us to another one of her lessons, right?
Because she spent so much time in situations that were adverse, situations where she was trying to change a system that was not designed in a way that was working for her. Yeah.
[00:04:21] EMILIA: Yeah. Right.
Yeah. And I think she experienced a lot of adversity, but she didn't internalize it. I think even the stories she told us from when she was little, she had a, an ability to see through things to, to not be feel like less than like she was able to, you know, like that story she told us where somebody was trying to make her feel bad because she spoke two languages.
[00:04:45] RORI: Oh, right.
[00:04:46] EMILIA: And she realized, like, no, like, two is better than one.
[00:04:51] RORI: Yeah. She was like, you can't put me down about this. It's not gonna work. Your attempt to make me feel bad about myself is ineffective because I know myself, because I'm not gonna listen to your bullshit. But she could have internalized it.
She could have been like, ooh, I'm lesser than, but she managed not to, and instead she kind of like, grew from it.
[00:05:11] EMILIA: Yeah, or she could have said like, oh, I'm gonna stop speaking Spanish. I think that maybe, you know, watching her dad, like, call out unfairness. I think all of those experiences too gave her some strength to face those situations.
[00:05:27] RORI: I mean, it seems like in the end, the adversity and the hostility sometimes just like gave her fuel for her fire, right? And she even uses this kind of formal framework, like, she built up a very large amount of resistance capital, which meant that she had incredible skills for navigating adverse situations while centering her values and being true to herself. And that positions her differently, that gives her something that people without those experiences don't have.
[00:05:55] EMILIA: Yes. And I think these math skills that she calls them, right, these are skills that can be beneficial for not only dealing with difficult situations, but also I think bringing a different perspective to the way she does like her work, her research, the way she analyzes situations.
And I think that's something that it's wrong that she faced all of these challenges, but she has been able to find some growth within that.
[00:06:24] RORI: Which, you know, I think there's a caveat for this one too, that I think she would agree with strongly, which is that all of that opposition and working against hostility does take a toll.
[00:06:36] EMILIA: It does. Right. Yeah, and the fact that she was the only one that she had to face all of these things by herself. I think having all that additional stress really can be harmful. Like she talked about her health and how she wishes that she had taken care of herself a little bit more.
[00:06:59] RORI: Yes, I feel like that's the third lesson here is to take care of ourselves.
And, you know, she came that, by that lesson, hard. You know, listeners, we're going to introduce a new segment soon called Revise and Resubmit, where we ask people what they would change about their careers. And I think this might be Leti's Revise and Resubmit, that she would have chosen her battles differently.
She would have taken on a little bit less. and just taking care of herself more throughout her career.
[00:07:30] EMILIA: Yeah, and it's something that she recognizes and remembers that story when she talks about her mentee and how her mentee is better at saying no and how she's so proud of that that her mentee, and I think she understands that her well being is also really important and she's proud of that. She's proud that her mentee recognizes that.
[00:07:51] RORI: Yeah, I feel like that's such a moment of excellent mentorship and humility to, to be like, Oh, my mentee saw me do something that wasn't the best for me and is doing something different. And how great is it that my mentee is doing better at that than I did?
Like, that's very beautiful. And also I feel like it gives us all a little permission to prioritize ourselves and take care of ourselves and our relationships. I loved hearing about how now Leti does take care of herself in this different way. Like the kind of incredible hot shower relaxation routine that she'll do.
It sounded so nice.
[00:08:28] EMILIA: Yeah, I mean, it's almost like I could smell it. The aromas.
[00:08:33] RORI: Totally. And you're like, got a little relaxed. You're like, Oh, lavender.
[00:08:37] EMILIA: I'm going to, I'm going to try that.
I'm going to try that. I'm going to try to relax.
[00:08:40] RORI: Please do. I'll send you a little aromatherapy oil or something you put in your shower.
Tell me how it is. Okay. You know, Emilia, on this show, we talk a lot about how like these women paved the way, but I just want to be real that they have literally made our paths easier. Like, In this case, it's like personal. Leti literally showed me how to be a faculty member, both by her example and by talking to me, which helped me navigate faculty life and made that transition much easier for me.
And like Leti didn't have somebody doing that for her when she was coming up. So I don't know. I just feel so sincerely grateful and indebted to Leti and to all of the Science Wise guests, because they have all made our own paths easier.
[00:09:25] EMILIA: I completely agree. We have really benefited from everything that they have experienced and they have definitely made it easier for all of us.
And Leti, I'm like, especially thankful to you for helping Rori. I mean, being kind and finding kindness and finding those people that really want you to succeed. I think that's really special. And I'm grateful for everything that you all, all the women that we've interviewed. And they are so well-intentioned and really want to make things better for the people that come after them.
[00:10:00] RORI: Totally. Well, thank you to everyone, and thank you to Leti.
[00:10:04] EMILIA: Thank you, Leti.
[00:10:06] RORI: Hey, catch you next time. Bye.
[00:10:08] EMILIA: Ciao.
[00:00:01] EMILIA: Hey Rori! Leti!
[00:00:03] RORI: Oh my gosh! Leti Marquez Magaña!
[00:00:06] EMILIA: I know!
[00:00:08] RORI: So amazing! And so funny! Why is she a scientist?
[00:00:12] EMILIA: Bugs Bunny!
[00:00:14] RORI: Like, little Leti, who's like, kept inside to be safe and watching hell of TV, and she's like, oh my god! Bugs Bunny makes science look fun, and like, you could make big changes!
That's for me!
[00:00:27] EMILIA: Yeah, well, whatever it takes. It's nice to see how people get inspiration from so many different things. I'm glad that science somehow gets into you one way or another.
[00:00:43] RORI: Well, welcome back listeners to another bonus episode. Today, Emilia and I are talking about some take-home lessons from our wonderful conversation with Dr. Leticia Marquez Magaña.
[00:00:55] EMILIA: Yeah, takeaways.
For me, one thing that I learned from Leti is how she, you know, she didn't have many mentors when she first started at SF State.
She was, I think the first female mentor arrived to SF State when she was a full professor. And so that means that she had to learn a lot of things through trial and error or just by being a good listener and having a good memory. And in order to make a good argument, she had to learn the rules of the system and work within them and recognize what are the things in the system that are valued and, you know, advocating for herself in those terms.
[00:01:36] RORI: Yeah, totally. And she had so many interesting examples at, you know, times when her choice wasn't the effective one and somebody else's was. Like, the time the student who was undocumented was wrongfully arrested and she and another faculty, Robert Ramirez, were you know, writing letters about the student's character and about his incredible science and everything.
And those, like, didn't have any effect. And then the student's white girlfriend said, you arrested him wrongfully. Police, you must release him now or I will sue you. And then he was released. I thought it was such a powerful learning moment that Leti was like, Oh, that's how this person with more privilege would argue, who understands what the police are worried about, what the police are valuing. And that's the argument that worked.
[00:02:25] EMILIA: Yeah. There was another story too, where she had to make an argument and the framework she used was getting promoted. Like how it was important for tenure, because that's something that the system recognizes. And of course, definitely learning from others who either already know the system or have the privilege of knowing the system.
[00:02:45] RORI: Yeah, you're right, Emilia. Leti even uses the term interest, interest convergence, which means if you want to get something done, if you want to make a change, it has to seem to be in the best interest of all the parties involved. So, Uh, in this case, if you are trying to make a change in how your academic system is working, then it needs to be clear to the dominant majority within that system why the change will benefit them as well.
But that's such a useful thing to keep in mind when you're trying to make these institutional changes that Leti has so much experience in.
[00:03:22] EMILIA: It feels like a really good strategy to find something or to somehow convince people that this is good for them too, so then they will allow things to happen.
[00:03:35] RORI: I mean, there is a little bit of a caveat, right though, Emilia, that, uh, you know, the same words coming from different people are received different ways.
So, for example, if a straight white man says something that's the same thing as what you or I might say, it might be received differently sometimes in a more friendly way, unfortunately, right?
[00:03:59] EMILIA: Yeah. And I suppose some people have the privilege of being better heard.
[00:04:04] RORI: Yeah. I mean, I think this gets us to another one of her lessons, right?
Because she spent so much time in situations that were adverse, situations where she was trying to change a system that was not designed in a way that was working for her. Yeah.
[00:04:21] EMILIA: Yeah. Right.
Yeah. And I think she experienced a lot of adversity, but she didn't internalize it. I think even the stories she told us from when she was little, she had a, an ability to see through things to, to not be feel like less than like she was able to, you know, like that story she told us where somebody was trying to make her feel bad because she spoke two languages.
[00:04:45] RORI: Oh, right.
[00:04:46] EMILIA: And she realized, like, no, like, two is better than one.
[00:04:51] RORI: Yeah. She was like, you can't put me down about this. It's not gonna work. Your attempt to make me feel bad about myself is ineffective because I know myself, because I'm not gonna listen to your bullshit. But she could have internalized it.
She could have been like, ooh, I'm lesser than, but she managed not to, and instead she kind of like, grew from it.
[00:05:11] EMILIA: Yeah, or she could have said like, oh, I'm gonna stop speaking Spanish. I think that maybe, you know, watching her dad, like, call out unfairness. I think all of those experiences too gave her some strength to face those situations.
[00:05:27] RORI: I mean, it seems like in the end, the adversity and the hostility sometimes just like gave her fuel for her fire, right? And she even uses this kind of formal framework, like, she built up a very large amount of resistance capital, which meant that she had incredible skills for navigating adverse situations while centering her values and being true to herself. And that positions her differently, that gives her something that people without those experiences don't have.
[00:05:55] EMILIA: Yes. And I think these math skills that she calls them, right, these are skills that can be beneficial for not only dealing with difficult situations, but also I think bringing a different perspective to the way she does like her work, her research, the way she analyzes situations.
And I think that's something that it's wrong that she faced all of these challenges, but she has been able to find some growth within that.
[00:06:24] RORI: Which, you know, I think there's a caveat for this one too, that I think she would agree with strongly, which is that all of that opposition and working against hostility does take a toll.
[00:06:36] EMILIA: It does. Right. Yeah, and the fact that she was the only one that she had to face all of these things by herself. I think having all that additional stress really can be harmful. Like she talked about her health and how she wishes that she had taken care of herself a little bit more.
[00:06:59] RORI: Yes, I feel like that's the third lesson here is to take care of ourselves.
And, you know, she came that, by that lesson, hard. You know, listeners, we're going to introduce a new segment soon called Revise and Resubmit, where we ask people what they would change about their careers. And I think this might be Leti's Revise and Resubmit, that she would have chosen her battles differently.
She would have taken on a little bit less. and just taking care of herself more throughout her career.
[00:07:30] EMILIA: Yeah, and it's something that she recognizes and remembers that story when she talks about her mentee and how her mentee is better at saying no and how she's so proud of that that her mentee, and I think she understands that her well being is also really important and she's proud of that. She's proud that her mentee recognizes that.
[00:07:51] RORI: Yeah, I feel like that's such a moment of excellent mentorship and humility to, to be like, Oh, my mentee saw me do something that wasn't the best for me and is doing something different. And how great is it that my mentee is doing better at that than I did?
Like, that's very beautiful. And also I feel like it gives us all a little permission to prioritize ourselves and take care of ourselves and our relationships. I loved hearing about how now Leti does take care of herself in this different way. Like the kind of incredible hot shower relaxation routine that she'll do.
It sounded so nice.
[00:08:28] EMILIA: Yeah, I mean, it's almost like I could smell it. The aromas.
[00:08:33] RORI: Totally. And you're like, got a little relaxed. You're like, Oh, lavender.
[00:08:37] EMILIA: I'm going to, I'm going to try that.
I'm going to try that. I'm going to try to relax.
[00:08:40] RORI: Please do. I'll send you a little aromatherapy oil or something you put in your shower.
Tell me how it is. Okay. You know, Emilia, on this show, we talk a lot about how like these women paved the way, but I just want to be real that they have literally made our paths easier. Like, In this case, it's like personal. Leti literally showed me how to be a faculty member, both by her example and by talking to me, which helped me navigate faculty life and made that transition much easier for me.
And like Leti didn't have somebody doing that for her when she was coming up. So I don't know. I just feel so sincerely grateful and indebted to Leti and to all of the Science Wise guests, because they have all made our own paths easier.
[00:09:25] EMILIA: I completely agree. We have really benefited from everything that they have experienced and they have definitely made it easier for all of us.
And Leti, I'm like, especially thankful to you for helping Rori. I mean, being kind and finding kindness and finding those people that really want you to succeed. I think that's really special. And I'm grateful for everything that you all, all the women that we've interviewed. And they are so well-intentioned and really want to make things better for the people that come after them.
[00:10:00] RORI: Totally. Well, thank you to everyone, and thank you to Leti.
[00:10:04] EMILIA: Thank you, Leti.
[00:10:06] RORI: Hey, catch you next time. Bye.
[00:10:08] EMILIA: Ciao.