Season 1 |
Bonus Episode 4: How to be an intuitive mathematician
[00:00:00] EMILIA: Hi, Rori!
[00:00:00] RORI: Hey, Emilia.
[00:00:02] EMILIA: Um, I have to say that this one, this episode was extra special for me because I, I met Ive when I was an undergrad and you know, she, we heard how she organized and created SIMU, which is the “Summer Institute in Mathematics for Undergrads”
Uh which I attended. And really, you know, opened up lots of opportunities for me. And so it was nice to reconnect with Ivelisse and hear more about her journey in her career.
[00:00:35] RORI: Yeah. Well, listeners, welcome in. You're going to get to hear a little bit about Emilia and my top take-home from the conversation with Dr. Ivelisse Rubio, uh, including these special connections from Emilia's mathematical youth with Ive.
[00:00:57] EMILIA: Yeah. So one, one lesson that Uh, Dr. Rubio was telling us about, you know, she left Puerto Rico to pursue a Ph.D. in Ithaca, New York, which, you know, in the winter, you can think of anything that's more different than Puerto Rico.
[00:01:16] RORI: Yeah.
[00:01:18] EMILIA: But, you know, so it was difficult to adjust, but she did.
but at some point, uh, you know, she was doing a lot of activities. She traveled to Puerto Rico and then,that was affecting her, her research progress. And at some point, her, one of her mentors said, you know, uh, you really need to focus or you're not going to finish your Ph.D..
[00:01:39] RORI: mm-Hmm?
[00:01:40] EMILIA: that was really, that resonated with me because, you know, when it comes to research and science, sometimes you have to really focus and take the time to make progress. And you need to reduce all the noise that's around you and just find that quiet space or that, that space that works for you. And that can push you through and, you know, a space to do some deep thinking that, that allows you to make progress. And so I think that's something that a lot of grad students have to learn sometimes during the research projects that sometimes it takes time. And so you need to have that time and you need to find it. And sometimes that means saying no to things.
[00:02:30] RORI: Mm-Hmm? . Yeah. It's a big leap from undergrad to grad school where undergrad you're in like tons of classes and you have a lot else going on. You're like working a job, you're taking care of family or, you know, in clubs you're running, doing a sport. And in grad school, uh, the focus does narrow in order to be successful.
[00:02:54] EMILIA: I think that's good advice for students because grad school is not like undergrad.
[00:02:58] RORI: Yeah, it's different in that way. And she had this moment where she learned it, but something I thought was interesting is, you know, she said her, it was her advisor who was like, Ive, you've got to focus or you're never going to finish. And then she was like, Oh, he was right. And she took that advice. But I think it's so interesting because sometimes we get advice and it's good and sometimes we get advice and it's bad. Like Francine Gachoupin got advice that was like, no, don't, do a master's in the middle of your Ph.D. You'll never finish your Ph.D. and the master's will be useless. And they were wrong, you know, she did finish and the master's is what set her up for her next position after that. So, uh, I thought that Ive has a little bit of insight about how you distinguish like useful advice from unuseful advice.
[00:03:45] EMILIA: Right. And I mean, I thought her answer was really beautiful. She said, you know, Listen to your
[00:03:52] RORI: Yeah, yeah,
[00:03:53] EMILIA: your heart.
[00:03:54] RORI: It's kind of this like, if you listen to your heart, if you like, let yourself be a self-critic, take in the advice and think about deeply if it's useful to you, then you'll know the answer.
[00:04:07] EMILIA: Right. what she really meant was like, yeah, think about it. Be, be critical about it.
Do, and you'll know what's right for you. I think, uh, yeah, we receive a lot of advice and we have to take the one, the advice that works for us. And I think this is where her mathematical thinking came on and she was able to make some decisions by analyzing the information and she thought about it and she made a decision and she agreed.
[00:04:45] RORI: And so this brings us to a second important take home, which is mathematical thinking helps us navigate our lives. It's not just like this abstract, you know, running, doing long division or trigonometry, thinking about triangles. It doesn't, the triangles don't matter. That's not what it's important in math.
What's important is like building rational arguments.
[00:05:12] EMILIA: Right, right. And I mean, I, she said that's what she enjoys, she enjoys Yeah, building these logical arguments in mathematics and how that can be really useful for understanding the world around us.
[00:05:27] RORI: Hmm. Yeah. She even, um, goes on to say that, if you know how to like make a proof, how to structure a clear, convincing argument where one statement supports the next statement, uh, then you can identify bullshit arguments, which are all around us these days. And if you can identify the bullshit argument, you can tear that down. You don't have to be affected by it.
[00:05:52] EMILIA: Right. And I think mathematical thinking gives you that.
[00:05:55] RORI: Yeah. So I feel like we're a little like high school PSA. We're like, learn your math. Like math is, math's going to be good for you. But I mean, obviously, you're a mathematician. Like we, we do think so. But I think she makes this argument that is really important.
Okay. Emilia, another lesson I really got from Ive is not to burn out. If you feel like you're burning out, put something down.
[00:06:22] EMILIA: And I, and I was actually really surprised when she described the amount of work that she had to do. Then, she and her co-organizer, Herbert, had to do to organize and run SIMU.
Uh, I mean, it was like an all-year effort.
And so that was very difficult.
And it was time-consuming.
And so they, of course they were gonna burn out.
[00:06:47] RORI: I've run undergrad research summer programs before that are like a fraction of the size and amount of time as SIMU was, um, and a fraction of as successful. But, they were a ton of work, like they could have had several people working full time to run that program. And she was, she and Herbert were trying to do it as they were also trying to, you know, they were also teaching, trying to run a research program, all of these other things.
Like it was too much, even as wonderful as it was. And she said like the best thing she's done is SIMU. Like she has so much pride in it, appropriately so. And it wasn't sustainable.
[00:07:23] EMILIA: Exactly. And, and yes, they were getting burned out and they had to put it down.
[00:07:28] RORI: That's hard to do.
[00:07:30] EMILIA: Exactly, because she was literally stopping something that she really enjoyed doing.
[00:07:37] RORI: Yeah. You have to say no to something. And yeah.
[00:07:41] EMILIA: I think that was good because that gave them time to reflect and think about it. Why would be a better model, which is what ended up happening. And then she was one of the directors for another summer research program at MSRI in, in Berkeley. And it was, it was better managed. They had more administrative help. And so it was not, uh, you know, all-consuming like SIMU was.
[00:08:09] RORI: And they like implemented, it's like the same goal, right? It's a summer program for a similar population of students in mathematics doing genuine research projects with like follow-up conferences, all of that. But they made this model that was more sustainable where they would rotate through different campuses. So it's not that one person has to organize this every single year. It's like more distributed.
[00:08:33] EMILIA: Right. And I think that's really good for, for the longevity of these programs.
[00:08:40] RORI: Totally! And I mean, we want them to live like Ive wants it to go on past her, right? So we need to have sustainability. And I think, you know, it was important for her to stop doing SIMU to get to that point. So this is an important lesson for me is that sometimes you have to put something down even if it's something really wonderful.
[00:09:03] EMILIA: Right. I completely agree.
[00:09:06] RORI: Well, I am so grateful to learn from Ive's lessons. Uh, I hope that it can help you and I, Emilia, and all of you listeners, to find ourselves more sustainable paths in academia and in science.
[00:09:24] EMILIA: Yeah, and I want to thank Ive and Herbert because now I know how much time they spent doing this and I am even more grateful to them for having done it. And so it was great to have you, Ive, and I, I hope to see you soon.
[00:09:44] RORI: Thank you, Ive. Catch you next time, Emilia.
[00:09:49] EMILIA: See you next time, Rori.
[00:09:51] RORI: Bye.
[00:09:53] EMILIA: Bye.
[00:00:00] RORI: Hey, Emilia.
[00:00:02] EMILIA: Um, I have to say that this one, this episode was extra special for me because I, I met Ive when I was an undergrad and you know, she, we heard how she organized and created SIMU, which is the “Summer Institute in Mathematics for Undergrads”
Uh which I attended. And really, you know, opened up lots of opportunities for me. And so it was nice to reconnect with Ivelisse and hear more about her journey in her career.
[00:00:35] RORI: Yeah. Well, listeners, welcome in. You're going to get to hear a little bit about Emilia and my top take-home from the conversation with Dr. Ivelisse Rubio, uh, including these special connections from Emilia's mathematical youth with Ive.
[00:00:57] EMILIA: Yeah. So one, one lesson that Uh, Dr. Rubio was telling us about, you know, she left Puerto Rico to pursue a Ph.D. in Ithaca, New York, which, you know, in the winter, you can think of anything that's more different than Puerto Rico.
[00:01:16] RORI: Yeah.
[00:01:18] EMILIA: But, you know, so it was difficult to adjust, but she did.
but at some point, uh, you know, she was doing a lot of activities. She traveled to Puerto Rico and then,that was affecting her, her research progress. And at some point, her, one of her mentors said, you know, uh, you really need to focus or you're not going to finish your Ph.D..
[00:01:39] RORI: mm-Hmm?
[00:01:40] EMILIA: that was really, that resonated with me because, you know, when it comes to research and science, sometimes you have to really focus and take the time to make progress. And you need to reduce all the noise that's around you and just find that quiet space or that, that space that works for you. And that can push you through and, you know, a space to do some deep thinking that, that allows you to make progress. And so I think that's something that a lot of grad students have to learn sometimes during the research projects that sometimes it takes time. And so you need to have that time and you need to find it. And sometimes that means saying no to things.
[00:02:30] RORI: Mm-Hmm? . Yeah. It's a big leap from undergrad to grad school where undergrad you're in like tons of classes and you have a lot else going on. You're like working a job, you're taking care of family or, you know, in clubs you're running, doing a sport. And in grad school, uh, the focus does narrow in order to be successful.
[00:02:54] EMILIA: I think that's good advice for students because grad school is not like undergrad.
[00:02:58] RORI: Yeah, it's different in that way. And she had this moment where she learned it, but something I thought was interesting is, you know, she said her, it was her advisor who was like, Ive, you've got to focus or you're never going to finish. And then she was like, Oh, he was right. And she took that advice. But I think it's so interesting because sometimes we get advice and it's good and sometimes we get advice and it's bad. Like Francine Gachoupin got advice that was like, no, don't, do a master's in the middle of your Ph.D. You'll never finish your Ph.D. and the master's will be useless. And they were wrong, you know, she did finish and the master's is what set her up for her next position after that. So, uh, I thought that Ive has a little bit of insight about how you distinguish like useful advice from unuseful advice.
[00:03:45] EMILIA: Right. And I mean, I thought her answer was really beautiful. She said, you know, Listen to your
[00:03:52] RORI: Yeah, yeah,
[00:03:53] EMILIA: your heart.
[00:03:54] RORI: It's kind of this like, if you listen to your heart, if you like, let yourself be a self-critic, take in the advice and think about deeply if it's useful to you, then you'll know the answer.
[00:04:07] EMILIA: Right. what she really meant was like, yeah, think about it. Be, be critical about it.
Do, and you'll know what's right for you. I think, uh, yeah, we receive a lot of advice and we have to take the one, the advice that works for us. And I think this is where her mathematical thinking came on and she was able to make some decisions by analyzing the information and she thought about it and she made a decision and she agreed.
[00:04:45] RORI: And so this brings us to a second important take home, which is mathematical thinking helps us navigate our lives. It's not just like this abstract, you know, running, doing long division or trigonometry, thinking about triangles. It doesn't, the triangles don't matter. That's not what it's important in math.
What's important is like building rational arguments.
[00:05:12] EMILIA: Right, right. And I mean, I, she said that's what she enjoys, she enjoys Yeah, building these logical arguments in mathematics and how that can be really useful for understanding the world around us.
[00:05:27] RORI: Hmm. Yeah. She even, um, goes on to say that, if you know how to like make a proof, how to structure a clear, convincing argument where one statement supports the next statement, uh, then you can identify bullshit arguments, which are all around us these days. And if you can identify the bullshit argument, you can tear that down. You don't have to be affected by it.
[00:05:52] EMILIA: Right. And I think mathematical thinking gives you that.
[00:05:55] RORI: Yeah. So I feel like we're a little like high school PSA. We're like, learn your math. Like math is, math's going to be good for you. But I mean, obviously, you're a mathematician. Like we, we do think so. But I think she makes this argument that is really important.
Okay. Emilia, another lesson I really got from Ive is not to burn out. If you feel like you're burning out, put something down.
[00:06:22] EMILIA: And I, and I was actually really surprised when she described the amount of work that she had to do. Then, she and her co-organizer, Herbert, had to do to organize and run SIMU.
Uh, I mean, it was like an all-year effort.
And so that was very difficult.
And it was time-consuming.
And so they, of course they were gonna burn out.
[00:06:47] RORI: I've run undergrad research summer programs before that are like a fraction of the size and amount of time as SIMU was, um, and a fraction of as successful. But, they were a ton of work, like they could have had several people working full time to run that program. And she was, she and Herbert were trying to do it as they were also trying to, you know, they were also teaching, trying to run a research program, all of these other things.
Like it was too much, even as wonderful as it was. And she said like the best thing she's done is SIMU. Like she has so much pride in it, appropriately so. And it wasn't sustainable.
[00:07:23] EMILIA: Exactly. And, and yes, they were getting burned out and they had to put it down.
[00:07:28] RORI: That's hard to do.
[00:07:30] EMILIA: Exactly, because she was literally stopping something that she really enjoyed doing.
[00:07:37] RORI: Yeah. You have to say no to something. And yeah.
[00:07:41] EMILIA: I think that was good because that gave them time to reflect and think about it. Why would be a better model, which is what ended up happening. And then she was one of the directors for another summer research program at MSRI in, in Berkeley. And it was, it was better managed. They had more administrative help. And so it was not, uh, you know, all-consuming like SIMU was.
[00:08:09] RORI: And they like implemented, it's like the same goal, right? It's a summer program for a similar population of students in mathematics doing genuine research projects with like follow-up conferences, all of that. But they made this model that was more sustainable where they would rotate through different campuses. So it's not that one person has to organize this every single year. It's like more distributed.
[00:08:33] EMILIA: Right. And I think that's really good for, for the longevity of these programs.
[00:08:40] RORI: Totally! And I mean, we want them to live like Ive wants it to go on past her, right? So we need to have sustainability. And I think, you know, it was important for her to stop doing SIMU to get to that point. So this is an important lesson for me is that sometimes you have to put something down even if it's something really wonderful.
[00:09:03] EMILIA: Right. I completely agree.
[00:09:06] RORI: Well, I am so grateful to learn from Ive's lessons. Uh, I hope that it can help you and I, Emilia, and all of you listeners, to find ourselves more sustainable paths in academia and in science.
[00:09:24] EMILIA: Yeah, and I want to thank Ive and Herbert because now I know how much time they spent doing this and I am even more grateful to them for having done it. And so it was great to have you, Ive, and I, I hope to see you soon.
[00:09:44] RORI: Thank you, Ive. Catch you next time, Emilia.
[00:09:49] EMILIA: See you next time, Rori.
[00:09:51] RORI: Bye.
[00:09:53] EMILIA: Bye.