Season 1 |
Bonus Episode S2Bonus1: How to lead with purpose and empathy
[00:00:00] RORI: Hey Emilia!
[00:00:01] EMILIA: Hi Rori!
[00:00:02] RORI: Oh my gosh, we got to talk with Maria Orive.
[00:00:05] EMILIA: she's such a lovely person.
[00:00:11] RORI: Yeah, easy to talk to and a badass.
[00:00:17] EMILIA: It was different this time because I knew a little bit about Maria and so you know, I learned so much from her and, and things that I didn't know.
[00:00:30] RORI: Yeah. And she like, I mean, she's kind of like in our broader circle, right? So it's kind of, when she talks about people in her life and mentors, we know those people, so we have more context and it's, you know, it's a little more juicy.
[00:00:44] RORI: So what was, what's the, the first lesson for you, Rori?
Okay, so the first lesson I wrote down is that to do science, you've got to have your basic needs met, which seems obvious, but like, you've got to be rested, you have to have, you know, good food, you have to be moving your body, you know, you have to have social connections, like your basic needs have to be met before you can actually do science.
[00:01:06] EMILIA: Yeah. I mean, she talked about just after she had kids, she, she, lacks so much energy. She was just so focused on, take care of her family and she just didn't have that extra space that she needed to have that creative, I think she called it creative energy.
[00:01:25] RORI: Yeah, her needs were not sufficiently met to be able to do the creative work of science.
[00:01:30] EMILIA: And I mean, for me, that really resonated because I remember having children and just being so tired and not only tired, but also concerned and stressed. I felt like science was moving on without me and I had to,
[00:01:48] RORI: What a thing to think about when you're also like trying to keep a young human alive and you've never done it before.
[00:01:54] EMILIA: I know. I think it's the whole lack of sleep, you know, you start getting into your own head and, uh, but yeah, I just remember I have these memories trying to finish projects. You know, like doing the last bits of, of things and just, it would take so long to, to just do any work.
[00:02:13] RORI: it's like torturous because you, you, you haven't slept. So then trying to like function at this level is, not really possible.
[00:02:21] EMILIA: Exactly. And I think, I think we should just sort of accept that and, and just know that when the time comes, when we have time again, it will be okay.
[00:02:31] RORI: And I mean, I think, you know, Maria said something about this too, at the end of her PhD thesis, where she was like, she, it's having to like, she was pretty burnt out at that point. She was just like exhausted and like, couldn't imagine finishing. Um, and she was like, Oh, in retrospect, she wishes that she just took a week off and went to the beach with a friend and like recharged her batteries, like, you know, renewed her energy.
And then she would have just done it. It wouldn't have been painful. She would have had what she needed to get the work done.
[00:02:58] EMILIA: I think that's exactly right. Sometimes we just need to recharge our batteries.
[00:03:04] RORI: Uh huh, totally. So that's an important lesson. Another one that I got from Maria is to gratefully accept inspiration and ideas from your peers who are around you. And I'm thinking of two things now, Emilia. One is, uh, that she applied to Stanford. And do you remember she did that because this person, Chris, somebody she knew applied and got in and she was like, Oh, he can do it. Sure. I can do it. But that was like a pivotal thing for her to do, uh, to apply to that school. you know, so thanks, Chris. She just got the idea from him. He didn't even say it. He just like was doing it and she was inspired and thought it was possible. And then the other is Sally Otto, who was like her friend and undergrad and decided she would go to PhD school. Yeah, Maria said that's why she considered it because she was like, Oh, Sally's doing it. Oh, this is a thing a person can do. I could do that. Obviously it was appealing to her in many different ways, but that's what kind of like sparked the possibility. She made decisions based on things she learned from her peers.
[00:04:12] EMILIA: I'm always surprised how much you can be influenced or by what people mention at times. So I remember when I was in high school, I, I was a freshman and, then I joined the cross country team and I wasn't aware, I didn't really know what I had to do to go into university, like what courses I had to take. Um, but I was lucky enough that many of the runners, uh, in cross country, they were taking AP classes and, you know, they were like the top students. in high school. And so they really guided me and I learned so much from just being around them.
[00:04:42] RORI: Okay, so somehow the AP students were on cross country with you, but you, but from that you like learned about a different possibility that you hadn't considered before.
[00:04:52] EMILIA: Yeah. And similarly, I mean, I think in undergrad I met another student who told me about this math research program in Puerto Rico and then I was like, Whoa,
[00:05:02] RORI: I remember this story, you were like Puerto Rico, you're like great, I'm gonna go study math.
[00:05:06] EMILIA: Exactly.I mean, Yeah, the peers around you they'll know something that might help you.
[00:05:26] RORI: Yeah, they'll show you possibilities. And sometimes you might like, I mean those like AP students from cross country, like you hadn't met them before, but like when you ran into them, you're like, Oh, I learned something from them. Even if they weren't your like, kind of primary group of people.
[00:05:26] EMILIA: That's right. Now for lesson three, I think something that Maria said that I, I think it's really important is that, you get to be good at something by working hard. Not necessarily by being natural or brilliant at it.
[00:05:42] RORI: Yes, I agree. This is a very important point, especially coming from like evolutionary biologists where, you know, sometimes we can have these ideas about like natural abilities or, you know, there's kind of like social Darwinism, it gets tangled with eugenics, but she's like, no, you get good at something by doing it by grinding on it.
[00:06:02] EMILIA: Yeah. And I, I don't think there's like a timeline. Like, remember what that professor said? Oh, at, when she, in undergrad, she went to a math professor and said, Oh, I'm thinking of doing math or something like that.
[00:06:13] RORI: Mm
[00:06:14] EMILIA: And then the professor said, well, if you wanted to do math research, you would already be brilliant by now.
[00:06:20] RORI: Yeah. Which was like, ouch. And also like, what the fuck? Like,
[00:06:25] EMILIA: I know.
[00:06:26] RORI: like what, what is this standard? This doesn't make any sense. Like, like you expect people to be good at something that they like, maybe never were exposed to or never had the opportunity to practice or do before. Like this is unreasonable. This is like, it's silly. It's silly.
[00:06:47] EMILIA: Okay, I admire so many things about Rori, but this, one of the things that I'm always really impressed with is Rori, you give amazing presentations. And after Rori gives the presentation, everybody who comes after is just. Uh, they don't know what to do because she's a really hard act to follow.
[00:07:04] RORI: I don't know if that's all the way true, but I do sometimes get feedback that my presentations are engaging and that
[00:07:11] EMILIA: They are.
[00:07:13] RORI: you know, sometimes people, students will be like, I've never been to a class like this before. And. Um, I mean, I think because it's engaging because the students are like busy thinking and learning during the class and it's like kind of enjoyable or whatever. I mean, I'll flatter myself to say that anyways, but I think,This is not something that I consider myself natural at, or like, uh, innately good at. I, I learned to do this because I practiced a lot. Like, a lot. I mean, I've literally taken workshops and classes about teaching and engaged teaching. And I learned from those and then I got to be a better teacher. And, when I was teaching at SF State, I taught a lot. Like, it has a fairly high teaching load, so I got a lot of practice. And oh my god, if you talk to my first year genetics students, god bless if any of them are listening. I am so sorry. It was an awful class. I did really, really bad teaching that class. Um, but I took their feedback. Some of it was pretty painful, but I took their feedback and I learned from it and then I practiced and I got better.
[00:08:01] EMILIA:Yeah. I can also attest that Rori does practice, by the way.
[00:08:03] RORI: Why?
[00:08:14] EMILIA: I've, I've seen the first, her first talks and then I've seen her final talks and I can say that there's always a huge improvement. And I think It's really hard because we as scientists, we have to present a lot. And I think we go to a lot of really boring talks, but Rori's talks are not boring.
[00:08:25] RORI: Oh, well you said that very nicely, that my talk really improved. I mean, you could have said like, Rori, your first draft was like, real bad. But luckily my friend Emilia gave me feedback and then I practiced a lot and worked hard and then it was pretty good. Okay, Emilia, thank you for chatting with me today. I can't wait to talk with you and our next guest soon.
[00:08:47] EMILIA: Yeah. And I want to thank Dr. Maria Orive for talking to us. Uh, it was great. And, uh, I'll catch you later.
[00:09:11] RORI: Okay, see you later, Emilia. Bye!
[00:00:01] EMILIA: Hi Rori!
[00:00:02] RORI: Oh my gosh, we got to talk with Maria Orive.
[00:00:05] EMILIA: she's such a lovely person.
[00:00:11] RORI: Yeah, easy to talk to and a badass.
[00:00:17] EMILIA: It was different this time because I knew a little bit about Maria and so you know, I learned so much from her and, and things that I didn't know.
[00:00:30] RORI: Yeah. And she like, I mean, she's kind of like in our broader circle, right? So it's kind of, when she talks about people in her life and mentors, we know those people, so we have more context and it's, you know, it's a little more juicy.
[00:00:44] RORI: So what was, what's the, the first lesson for you, Rori?
Okay, so the first lesson I wrote down is that to do science, you've got to have your basic needs met, which seems obvious, but like, you've got to be rested, you have to have, you know, good food, you have to be moving your body, you know, you have to have social connections, like your basic needs have to be met before you can actually do science.
[00:01:06] EMILIA: Yeah. I mean, she talked about just after she had kids, she, she, lacks so much energy. She was just so focused on, take care of her family and she just didn't have that extra space that she needed to have that creative, I think she called it creative energy.
[00:01:25] RORI: Yeah, her needs were not sufficiently met to be able to do the creative work of science.
[00:01:30] EMILIA: And I mean, for me, that really resonated because I remember having children and just being so tired and not only tired, but also concerned and stressed. I felt like science was moving on without me and I had to,
[00:01:48] RORI: What a thing to think about when you're also like trying to keep a young human alive and you've never done it before.
[00:01:54] EMILIA: I know. I think it's the whole lack of sleep, you know, you start getting into your own head and, uh, but yeah, I just remember I have these memories trying to finish projects. You know, like doing the last bits of, of things and just, it would take so long to, to just do any work.
[00:02:13] RORI: it's like torturous because you, you, you haven't slept. So then trying to like function at this level is, not really possible.
[00:02:21] EMILIA: Exactly. And I think, I think we should just sort of accept that and, and just know that when the time comes, when we have time again, it will be okay.
[00:02:31] RORI: And I mean, I think, you know, Maria said something about this too, at the end of her PhD thesis, where she was like, she, it's having to like, she was pretty burnt out at that point. She was just like exhausted and like, couldn't imagine finishing. Um, and she was like, Oh, in retrospect, she wishes that she just took a week off and went to the beach with a friend and like recharged her batteries, like, you know, renewed her energy.
And then she would have just done it. It wouldn't have been painful. She would have had what she needed to get the work done.
[00:02:58] EMILIA: I think that's exactly right. Sometimes we just need to recharge our batteries.
[00:03:04] RORI: Uh huh, totally. So that's an important lesson. Another one that I got from Maria is to gratefully accept inspiration and ideas from your peers who are around you. And I'm thinking of two things now, Emilia. One is, uh, that she applied to Stanford. And do you remember she did that because this person, Chris, somebody she knew applied and got in and she was like, Oh, he can do it. Sure. I can do it. But that was like a pivotal thing for her to do, uh, to apply to that school. you know, so thanks, Chris. She just got the idea from him. He didn't even say it. He just like was doing it and she was inspired and thought it was possible. And then the other is Sally Otto, who was like her friend and undergrad and decided she would go to PhD school. Yeah, Maria said that's why she considered it because she was like, Oh, Sally's doing it. Oh, this is a thing a person can do. I could do that. Obviously it was appealing to her in many different ways, but that's what kind of like sparked the possibility. She made decisions based on things she learned from her peers.
[00:04:12] EMILIA: I'm always surprised how much you can be influenced or by what people mention at times. So I remember when I was in high school, I, I was a freshman and, then I joined the cross country team and I wasn't aware, I didn't really know what I had to do to go into university, like what courses I had to take. Um, but I was lucky enough that many of the runners, uh, in cross country, they were taking AP classes and, you know, they were like the top students. in high school. And so they really guided me and I learned so much from just being around them.
[00:04:42] RORI: Okay, so somehow the AP students were on cross country with you, but you, but from that you like learned about a different possibility that you hadn't considered before.
[00:04:52] EMILIA: Yeah. And similarly, I mean, I think in undergrad I met another student who told me about this math research program in Puerto Rico and then I was like, Whoa,
[00:05:02] RORI: I remember this story, you were like Puerto Rico, you're like great, I'm gonna go study math.
[00:05:06] EMILIA: Exactly.I mean, Yeah, the peers around you they'll know something that might help you.
[00:05:26] RORI: Yeah, they'll show you possibilities. And sometimes you might like, I mean those like AP students from cross country, like you hadn't met them before, but like when you ran into them, you're like, Oh, I learned something from them. Even if they weren't your like, kind of primary group of people.
[00:05:26] EMILIA: That's right. Now for lesson three, I think something that Maria said that I, I think it's really important is that, you get to be good at something by working hard. Not necessarily by being natural or brilliant at it.
[00:05:42] RORI: Yes, I agree. This is a very important point, especially coming from like evolutionary biologists where, you know, sometimes we can have these ideas about like natural abilities or, you know, there's kind of like social Darwinism, it gets tangled with eugenics, but she's like, no, you get good at something by doing it by grinding on it.
[00:06:02] EMILIA: Yeah. And I, I don't think there's like a timeline. Like, remember what that professor said? Oh, at, when she, in undergrad, she went to a math professor and said, Oh, I'm thinking of doing math or something like that.
[00:06:13] RORI: Mm
[00:06:14] EMILIA: And then the professor said, well, if you wanted to do math research, you would already be brilliant by now.
[00:06:20] RORI: Yeah. Which was like, ouch. And also like, what the fuck? Like,
[00:06:25] EMILIA: I know.
[00:06:26] RORI: like what, what is this standard? This doesn't make any sense. Like, like you expect people to be good at something that they like, maybe never were exposed to or never had the opportunity to practice or do before. Like this is unreasonable. This is like, it's silly. It's silly.
[00:06:47] EMILIA: Okay, I admire so many things about Rori, but this, one of the things that I'm always really impressed with is Rori, you give amazing presentations. And after Rori gives the presentation, everybody who comes after is just. Uh, they don't know what to do because she's a really hard act to follow.
[00:07:04] RORI: I don't know if that's all the way true, but I do sometimes get feedback that my presentations are engaging and that
[00:07:11] EMILIA: They are.
[00:07:13] RORI: you know, sometimes people, students will be like, I've never been to a class like this before. And. Um, I mean, I think because it's engaging because the students are like busy thinking and learning during the class and it's like kind of enjoyable or whatever. I mean, I'll flatter myself to say that anyways, but I think,This is not something that I consider myself natural at, or like, uh, innately good at. I, I learned to do this because I practiced a lot. Like, a lot. I mean, I've literally taken workshops and classes about teaching and engaged teaching. And I learned from those and then I got to be a better teacher. And, when I was teaching at SF State, I taught a lot. Like, it has a fairly high teaching load, so I got a lot of practice. And oh my god, if you talk to my first year genetics students, god bless if any of them are listening. I am so sorry. It was an awful class. I did really, really bad teaching that class. Um, but I took their feedback. Some of it was pretty painful, but I took their feedback and I learned from it and then I practiced and I got better.
[00:08:01] EMILIA:Yeah. I can also attest that Rori does practice, by the way.
[00:08:03] RORI: Why?
[00:08:14] EMILIA: I've, I've seen the first, her first talks and then I've seen her final talks and I can say that there's always a huge improvement. And I think It's really hard because we as scientists, we have to present a lot. And I think we go to a lot of really boring talks, but Rori's talks are not boring.
[00:08:25] RORI: Oh, well you said that very nicely, that my talk really improved. I mean, you could have said like, Rori, your first draft was like, real bad. But luckily my friend Emilia gave me feedback and then I practiced a lot and worked hard and then it was pretty good. Okay, Emilia, thank you for chatting with me today. I can't wait to talk with you and our next guest soon.
[00:08:47] EMILIA: Yeah. And I want to thank Dr. Maria Orive for talking to us. Uh, it was great. And, uh, I'll catch you later.
[00:09:11] RORI: Okay, see you later, Emilia. Bye!