Season 2 |
Bonus Episode S2Bonus3: How to steer your career with the help of mentors
[00:00:00] RORI: Emilia, you have this picture in your mind of young Joann Trejo on her bike, like cruising around Stockton.
[00:00:08] EMILIA: Fixing her bike with spare parts from another bike. I can just imagine her being in the back of the group.
[00:00:15] RORI: But keeping up. But keeping up, yep. I guess being in the back of the group changed.
Figuring out how things work and how to fix things. That's kind of her profession now.
[00:00:23] EMILIA: Being unafraid of just tackling and fixing things and creating things, right? She's done that.
[00:00:29] RORI: We are thrilled to talk with you listeners today about some of the things that we learned from Dr. Joann Trejo. Dun, dun, dun, dun.
Emilia, what's your first lesson?
[00:00:43] EMILIA: First of all, I have to say, I'm so jealous that she has such great mentors. But one thing that was clear is that she was investing in her mentoring relationships.
[00:00:55] RORI: And
[00:00:56] EMILIA: so who in this world has a mentor from like elementary school? Dr. Trejo told us that she would finish all her schoolwork and then
[00:01:08] RORI: get into trouble.
[00:01:08] EMILIA: Yeah, she was bored and so she would be sent to the principal's office and that's how she met Ms. Estorga, who was the vice principal in elementary school.
[00:01:18] RORI: Who saw Little Joann Trejo and realized that she was understimulated and then gave her work to do and then Mrs. Torca was kind of her like little guardian angel in middle school when she, the public middle school was not the right thing for her, when Mrs.
Torga helped Joann's mom figure out how to get her to a different middle school where she ended up thriving. It's like incredible and Joann just sees her once a month and just celebrated her 87th birthday with her. This is a deep investment in mentoring relationships.
[00:01:52] EMILIA: Wow, yeah, that's pretty amazing.
They're kind of neighbors now, and they still see each other.
[00:01:57] RORI: I mean, I see why you're jealous, Emilia.
[00:02:00] EMILIA: And then she also had this other mentor, a professor from UC Berkeley.
[00:02:05] RORI: Yeah, who she met by chance, right? I mean, kind of interesting, like her, what was her middle or high school science teacher's dad was this professor.
And she would go work in the garden. And I think this didn't get into the final cut, but she was paid. 2 an hour. Great, great wages there to work in her teacher's garden. And then she met her teacher's dad, who was an engineering professor at UC Berkeley.
[00:02:29] EMILIA: Yeah. And who helped her in her science project. And that's, was the beginning of, of this, uh, mentoring relationship.
[00:02:36] RORI: I think this is so important, Emilia. So she was doing a high school science project and something, some kind of electronics project. She needed to make some kind of transformer. She didn't know how to do it. She didn't have equipment. And then she reached out to professor Oppenheim. And was like, I don't know how to do this, but you clearly do. Can you help me? And he did. But the reach out is what's so interesting to me.
[00:02:57] EMILIA: You know, a lot of students have questions about how do you find a mentor? And sometimes it's, you ask, you simply ask for help and see if people can help you. And the people who are interested. In that specific problem, they could be potential mentors.
[00:03:12] RORI: Yeah. And I think that's a thing too, Emilia is that professor Oppenheim is an engineer and he was very interested in this. He was like, yes, this is my expertise. High school, Joann Trejo, no problem. I will totally help you with your project. But then they developed this relationship that was really transformative that opened so many doors. And made Joann aware of opportunities that otherwise she would have no idea about.
[00:03:35] EMILIA: I think another key thing here that she mentioned is that she was doing summer research at Berkeley. She was able to see, like, what, what was the life of an academic like? And it's something that she found attractive. She thought, oh, this is a good path.
I could be an academic. And so I think having access to Dr. Oppenheim also provided a vision of what your life could be like if you're an academic.
[00:04:06] RORI: So it opened a whole career path to her. And she was like, Ooh, this looks like a good life. Okay, so Emilia, when she was doing that, do you think that she knew that she was investing in these mentorship relationships?
[00:04:18] EMILIA: I don't think she was. She's aware of that this is what she was doing. But I think with a lot of the lessons, when people are doing things, they don't know that's what they're doing. This is a lesson from, from this story that she was actually investing in this relationships by keeping in touch. She's still investing in Miss Estorga's life because she sees her once a month.
I think this can be something that's also really rewarding. Because she gets to maintain these relationships, not only are they beneficial to you, they also give you joy.
[00:04:51] RORI: So at the time, she probably wasn't thinking, I'm going to invest in my mentorship relationships or whatever, but she was just doing the thing that felt right and exciting to her.
She was asking questions, she was following up with the people who were helping her, she was building relationships, and in retrospect, she was investing in these relationships. And Emilia, what about you? Have you had Mentors and mentoring relationships that were really important to you that changed your life in your youth?
[00:05:21] EMILIA: When I was in high school, I was recruited to be in the cross country team.
[00:05:26] RORI: Recruited? What did that look like?
[00:05:28] EMILIA: So, uh, Coach Waldron. Who's the, uh, he's still, he's still coaches there at my old high school. He recruited me to join the cross country team and I did, and that was really beneficial to me on different levels.
I met a bunch of other students who were ahead of me and that really helped me because there were a lot of smart students. And they would tell me everything they knew about how to apply to university, to college. And so that was really useful in that sense. It increased my network. It improved my wellness by a lot.
I think we all want to find community. And I found community in running. The running itself was really good for me. I think. And I think it's something that has stayed with me and has helped me through difficult times, for sure.
[00:06:20] RORI: And Coach Waldron, he kind of created this environment, so he's a mentor to you, particularly in the sense that he made something that he then invited you into and really served you well.
[00:06:31] EMILIA: Yeah, yeah. And I still talk to him. I'm really grateful. for the community he built and for the community that he continues to build for other young students. Rory, what's a lesson that you learned from chatting with Dr. Joann Trejo?
[00:06:48] RORI: Start small and then build. And she talked about this with some of the programs that she's made and some of the kind of institutional transformation work that she's done.
It also seems to come from her experience in her MBA, which is like It's such a cool thing that most scientists don't do.
[00:07:05] EMILIA: Like who decides to just do an MBA in the middle of being a scientist?
[00:07:09] RORI: Yeah, she's literally like a professor. And she's like, Oh, I could use an MBA. It's going to give me different perspectives.
And it did. So she learned to make like small pilots, small prototypes and see how it goes. So the reason why you do that, the reason to make something small is to, to learn, to be able to make mistakes that are non-catastrophic because it's on a small scale and to learn and then to build something stronger.
And. And part of that also, this was very poignant to me, is she talked about the importance of building infrastructure. And she's like, before you try to make this change, you need some infrastructure. And this is something, a lesson from her MBA too. That like, you need to get yourself set up to do the thing.
Which is often a step that I think we kind of pass over. And that doesn't work well.
[00:07:53] EMILIA: I thought that was a really good point too, because I mean, I think we all get excited about starting something new, um, especially something to help other people, but then we don't know the unknown. Do I have the right infrastructure?
Do I have people around me that are going to help me build whatever I want to build? And also that you're as good as the people that you're with. You need to have a good team because those are the people that are going to help you create. And expand.
[00:08:24] RORI: Totally.
[00:08:25] EMILIA: And develop.
[00:08:26] RORI: You don't need to know all the answers, but being around people who can, uh, help you figure it out is, is the key there. So I love that.
[00:08:33] EMILIA: She said, if things are not working, then you have to pivot, and you have to be resourceful.
[00:08:40] RORI: Totally.
[00:08:40] EMILIA: And you have to be scrappy.
[00:08:43] RORI: Like, on her bike back in the day, when she was like, oh, my chain broke, I'm gonna take a chain from another bike and figure out how to make this happen. And she told a story where she was trying to change something about the university and she tried one approach to it with the administration and it just totally failed.
So I, I assume she must've like licked her wounds for a moment, but the way she told the story, she was like, Oh, well, okay. And then she found a different approach through a different part of the administration and that was effective. And so she's like, that's what I'll do then. If you want to build something strong, you've got to be able to change your approach depending on what you learn.
And. Deal with the setbacks.
[00:09:21] EMILIA: Rory, but you, you have built a lot of programs. What was your strategy?
[00:09:26] RORI: Well, I definitely learned through trial and error. I'm thinking about a summer program that I made, uh, together with Dr. Plinney Pennings. I can go on about the summer program. I think it's so rad, but it was for undergrads at San Francisco State.
who were in biology. It started just biology and then we expanded to chemistry, working with Nicole Adelstein, who's another incredible colleague. We started in biology and we wanted these students to learn computational skills. And we, we wrote a paper about it. You can go read about that if you're so inclined.
Um, But we did start small. It worked well, and some things didn't, so we changed some aspects of how we did it. We changed how the mentors, we had like teams of students and a mentor, we kind of changed some of the structure, and we slowly grew. The program was like, extremely successful. Students learned tons of computational skills.
A lot of those students then went in to add a computer science minor to their degree. A ton of them went into research after that. So the program did really well. And I think that starting small and building really informed that. So I'm into that. But there's another part of Joann's lesson that we didn't follow exactly, and I wish we did, which was to build the infrastructure first.
[00:10:43] EMILIA: Yeah,
[00:10:44] RORI: we just kind of started doing things and we didn't have funding at first. So we just kind of were like, Oh, let's just do something. It was just Pliny and I. doing this together. We didn't have any support. We didn't have any funding. Eventually kind of funding came to us because people realized it was such a cool program.
There was a foundation who approached us and was like, we want to fund this. But in the beginning we didn't have any of that. And then even when we got funding, there were restrictions on it. So it was difficult to like. It turned into a little bit of a burnout situation because it was a ton of work to run this summer program.
[00:11:17] EMILIA: And I mean, the consequences that you can end up spending all of your time, all of your time doing this, which is, I think is a good segue into our next lesson is that
[00:11:31] RORI: tell us
[00:11:31] EMILIA: how do you balance service and science? I don't know, but I think one thing to think about that. She mentioned in our conversation, she said every minute you spend working on service is one minute less working on science.
[00:11:50] RORI: Yes.
[00:11:50] EMILIA: And so the fact that you're, there's this trade-off. We have finite time and so we have to choose how we spend our time. And so if you do not have a good infrastructure, if you don't have those people around you, you are going to be doing a lot of extra work. You're going to have less time to do mentoring, less time to do research, and less time to write grants.
[00:12:11] RORI: And I feel like it's such a difficult balance because, I don't know, Emilia, I feel like when you and I were coming up, the standard advice was basically like, do no service. It was like, like, don't do anything. Don't try to change anything because then you're going to be spending your time on that and you won't be spending your time on science research.
I don't fully agree with that. I don't think we should do no service. And at the same time, I myself have definitely. Made the mistake of signing up for way too much service and then it's really difficult to get my research done There's some kind of balance in here I mean being strategic like Joann and saying like okay first get your infrastructure so that whatever you rad transformative projects are don't take up your whole time so that you have something left.
So you have help to do it There's some strategy about it and there's some being real about the limited resource of our time.
[00:13:03] EMILIA: She does a lot of service.
[00:13:05] RORI: Oh my God.
[00:13:05] EMILIA: Look at her CV and how much grant funding she has just thinking about all the
reports she has to write. So I'm like, Oh my God, she has managed to balance service and science.
And she did say that young scientists are being asked to do more service. Yeah. And so they should be really protective of their time.
[00:13:25] RORI: Yes.
[00:13:26] EMILIA: Because if you don't do science, then papers are not going to be published. If papers are not going to be published, then it's going to be really difficult to get grants.
And so then, you can end up in a difficult situation.
[00:13:39] RORI: Even without, like, projecting that far, if you're in science, it's because you love doing science, right? You can't be in this field if you don't. Enjoy the actual research and so you want to make sure that you actually get to do that and doesn't mean that you don't enjoy The other organizing aspects as well.
I mean, you're right. Emilia Joann is Incredibly productive in at this point both scientific research and like institutional Transformation and kind of the change of science culture.
And it seemed like her approach that she took was that she focused really hard on her research for, until she was associate or full professor probably.
And then at that point she started picking up institutional transformation. And she went and got herself an MBA. She was like, I want to learn how to do this well before I really engage with it. So she clearly laid her path carefully.
[00:14:34] EMILIA: I think the MBA really helped her visualize all the different components that she needed to have to be successful at implementing good service.
[00:14:45] RORI: Well, I am so grateful to Dr. Joann Trejo for the incredible work that she's been doing in science for so long, and for sharing some of her insights and lessons with us.
[00:14:56] EMILIA: Yes, Dr. Joann Trejo, thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
[00:15:02] RORI: And thank you listeners for learning together alongside us. Okay, bye, Emilia.
[00:15:07] EMILIA: Bye Rory.
[00:00:08] EMILIA: Fixing her bike with spare parts from another bike. I can just imagine her being in the back of the group.
[00:00:15] RORI: But keeping up. But keeping up, yep. I guess being in the back of the group changed.
Figuring out how things work and how to fix things. That's kind of her profession now.
[00:00:23] EMILIA: Being unafraid of just tackling and fixing things and creating things, right? She's done that.
[00:00:29] RORI: We are thrilled to talk with you listeners today about some of the things that we learned from Dr. Joann Trejo. Dun, dun, dun, dun.
Emilia, what's your first lesson?
[00:00:43] EMILIA: First of all, I have to say, I'm so jealous that she has such great mentors. But one thing that was clear is that she was investing in her mentoring relationships.
[00:00:55] RORI: And
[00:00:56] EMILIA: so who in this world has a mentor from like elementary school? Dr. Trejo told us that she would finish all her schoolwork and then
[00:01:08] RORI: get into trouble.
[00:01:08] EMILIA: Yeah, she was bored and so she would be sent to the principal's office and that's how she met Ms. Estorga, who was the vice principal in elementary school.
[00:01:18] RORI: Who saw Little Joann Trejo and realized that she was understimulated and then gave her work to do and then Mrs. Torca was kind of her like little guardian angel in middle school when she, the public middle school was not the right thing for her, when Mrs.
Torga helped Joann's mom figure out how to get her to a different middle school where she ended up thriving. It's like incredible and Joann just sees her once a month and just celebrated her 87th birthday with her. This is a deep investment in mentoring relationships.
[00:01:52] EMILIA: Wow, yeah, that's pretty amazing.
They're kind of neighbors now, and they still see each other.
[00:01:57] RORI: I mean, I see why you're jealous, Emilia.
[00:02:00] EMILIA: And then she also had this other mentor, a professor from UC Berkeley.
[00:02:05] RORI: Yeah, who she met by chance, right? I mean, kind of interesting, like her, what was her middle or high school science teacher's dad was this professor.
And she would go work in the garden. And I think this didn't get into the final cut, but she was paid. 2 an hour. Great, great wages there to work in her teacher's garden. And then she met her teacher's dad, who was an engineering professor at UC Berkeley.
[00:02:29] EMILIA: Yeah. And who helped her in her science project. And that's, was the beginning of, of this, uh, mentoring relationship.
[00:02:36] RORI: I think this is so important, Emilia. So she was doing a high school science project and something, some kind of electronics project. She needed to make some kind of transformer. She didn't know how to do it. She didn't have equipment. And then she reached out to professor Oppenheim. And was like, I don't know how to do this, but you clearly do. Can you help me? And he did. But the reach out is what's so interesting to me.
[00:02:57] EMILIA: You know, a lot of students have questions about how do you find a mentor? And sometimes it's, you ask, you simply ask for help and see if people can help you. And the people who are interested. In that specific problem, they could be potential mentors.
[00:03:12] RORI: Yeah. And I think that's a thing too, Emilia is that professor Oppenheim is an engineer and he was very interested in this. He was like, yes, this is my expertise. High school, Joann Trejo, no problem. I will totally help you with your project. But then they developed this relationship that was really transformative that opened so many doors. And made Joann aware of opportunities that otherwise she would have no idea about.
[00:03:35] EMILIA: I think another key thing here that she mentioned is that she was doing summer research at Berkeley. She was able to see, like, what, what was the life of an academic like? And it's something that she found attractive. She thought, oh, this is a good path.
I could be an academic. And so I think having access to Dr. Oppenheim also provided a vision of what your life could be like if you're an academic.
[00:04:06] RORI: So it opened a whole career path to her. And she was like, Ooh, this looks like a good life. Okay, so Emilia, when she was doing that, do you think that she knew that she was investing in these mentorship relationships?
[00:04:18] EMILIA: I don't think she was. She's aware of that this is what she was doing. But I think with a lot of the lessons, when people are doing things, they don't know that's what they're doing. This is a lesson from, from this story that she was actually investing in this relationships by keeping in touch. She's still investing in Miss Estorga's life because she sees her once a month.
I think this can be something that's also really rewarding. Because she gets to maintain these relationships, not only are they beneficial to you, they also give you joy.
[00:04:51] RORI: So at the time, she probably wasn't thinking, I'm going to invest in my mentorship relationships or whatever, but she was just doing the thing that felt right and exciting to her.
She was asking questions, she was following up with the people who were helping her, she was building relationships, and in retrospect, she was investing in these relationships. And Emilia, what about you? Have you had Mentors and mentoring relationships that were really important to you that changed your life in your youth?
[00:05:21] EMILIA: When I was in high school, I was recruited to be in the cross country team.
[00:05:26] RORI: Recruited? What did that look like?
[00:05:28] EMILIA: So, uh, Coach Waldron. Who's the, uh, he's still, he's still coaches there at my old high school. He recruited me to join the cross country team and I did, and that was really beneficial to me on different levels.
I met a bunch of other students who were ahead of me and that really helped me because there were a lot of smart students. And they would tell me everything they knew about how to apply to university, to college. And so that was really useful in that sense. It increased my network. It improved my wellness by a lot.
I think we all want to find community. And I found community in running. The running itself was really good for me. I think. And I think it's something that has stayed with me and has helped me through difficult times, for sure.
[00:06:20] RORI: And Coach Waldron, he kind of created this environment, so he's a mentor to you, particularly in the sense that he made something that he then invited you into and really served you well.
[00:06:31] EMILIA: Yeah, yeah. And I still talk to him. I'm really grateful. for the community he built and for the community that he continues to build for other young students. Rory, what's a lesson that you learned from chatting with Dr. Joann Trejo?
[00:06:48] RORI: Start small and then build. And she talked about this with some of the programs that she's made and some of the kind of institutional transformation work that she's done.
It also seems to come from her experience in her MBA, which is like It's such a cool thing that most scientists don't do.
[00:07:05] EMILIA: Like who decides to just do an MBA in the middle of being a scientist?
[00:07:09] RORI: Yeah, she's literally like a professor. And she's like, Oh, I could use an MBA. It's going to give me different perspectives.
And it did. So she learned to make like small pilots, small prototypes and see how it goes. So the reason why you do that, the reason to make something small is to, to learn, to be able to make mistakes that are non-catastrophic because it's on a small scale and to learn and then to build something stronger.
And. And part of that also, this was very poignant to me, is she talked about the importance of building infrastructure. And she's like, before you try to make this change, you need some infrastructure. And this is something, a lesson from her MBA too. That like, you need to get yourself set up to do the thing.
Which is often a step that I think we kind of pass over. And that doesn't work well.
[00:07:53] EMILIA: I thought that was a really good point too, because I mean, I think we all get excited about starting something new, um, especially something to help other people, but then we don't know the unknown. Do I have the right infrastructure?
Do I have people around me that are going to help me build whatever I want to build? And also that you're as good as the people that you're with. You need to have a good team because those are the people that are going to help you create. And expand.
[00:08:24] RORI: Totally.
[00:08:25] EMILIA: And develop.
[00:08:26] RORI: You don't need to know all the answers, but being around people who can, uh, help you figure it out is, is the key there. So I love that.
[00:08:33] EMILIA: She said, if things are not working, then you have to pivot, and you have to be resourceful.
[00:08:40] RORI: Totally.
[00:08:40] EMILIA: And you have to be scrappy.
[00:08:43] RORI: Like, on her bike back in the day, when she was like, oh, my chain broke, I'm gonna take a chain from another bike and figure out how to make this happen. And she told a story where she was trying to change something about the university and she tried one approach to it with the administration and it just totally failed.
So I, I assume she must've like licked her wounds for a moment, but the way she told the story, she was like, Oh, well, okay. And then she found a different approach through a different part of the administration and that was effective. And so she's like, that's what I'll do then. If you want to build something strong, you've got to be able to change your approach depending on what you learn.
And. Deal with the setbacks.
[00:09:21] EMILIA: Rory, but you, you have built a lot of programs. What was your strategy?
[00:09:26] RORI: Well, I definitely learned through trial and error. I'm thinking about a summer program that I made, uh, together with Dr. Plinney Pennings. I can go on about the summer program. I think it's so rad, but it was for undergrads at San Francisco State.
who were in biology. It started just biology and then we expanded to chemistry, working with Nicole Adelstein, who's another incredible colleague. We started in biology and we wanted these students to learn computational skills. And we, we wrote a paper about it. You can go read about that if you're so inclined.
Um, But we did start small. It worked well, and some things didn't, so we changed some aspects of how we did it. We changed how the mentors, we had like teams of students and a mentor, we kind of changed some of the structure, and we slowly grew. The program was like, extremely successful. Students learned tons of computational skills.
A lot of those students then went in to add a computer science minor to their degree. A ton of them went into research after that. So the program did really well. And I think that starting small and building really informed that. So I'm into that. But there's another part of Joann's lesson that we didn't follow exactly, and I wish we did, which was to build the infrastructure first.
[00:10:43] EMILIA: Yeah,
[00:10:44] RORI: we just kind of started doing things and we didn't have funding at first. So we just kind of were like, Oh, let's just do something. It was just Pliny and I. doing this together. We didn't have any support. We didn't have any funding. Eventually kind of funding came to us because people realized it was such a cool program.
There was a foundation who approached us and was like, we want to fund this. But in the beginning we didn't have any of that. And then even when we got funding, there were restrictions on it. So it was difficult to like. It turned into a little bit of a burnout situation because it was a ton of work to run this summer program.
[00:11:17] EMILIA: And I mean, the consequences that you can end up spending all of your time, all of your time doing this, which is, I think is a good segue into our next lesson is that
[00:11:31] RORI: tell us
[00:11:31] EMILIA: how do you balance service and science? I don't know, but I think one thing to think about that. She mentioned in our conversation, she said every minute you spend working on service is one minute less working on science.
[00:11:50] RORI: Yes.
[00:11:50] EMILIA: And so the fact that you're, there's this trade-off. We have finite time and so we have to choose how we spend our time. And so if you do not have a good infrastructure, if you don't have those people around you, you are going to be doing a lot of extra work. You're going to have less time to do mentoring, less time to do research, and less time to write grants.
[00:12:11] RORI: And I feel like it's such a difficult balance because, I don't know, Emilia, I feel like when you and I were coming up, the standard advice was basically like, do no service. It was like, like, don't do anything. Don't try to change anything because then you're going to be spending your time on that and you won't be spending your time on science research.
I don't fully agree with that. I don't think we should do no service. And at the same time, I myself have definitely. Made the mistake of signing up for way too much service and then it's really difficult to get my research done There's some kind of balance in here I mean being strategic like Joann and saying like okay first get your infrastructure so that whatever you rad transformative projects are don't take up your whole time so that you have something left.
So you have help to do it There's some strategy about it and there's some being real about the limited resource of our time.
[00:13:03] EMILIA: She does a lot of service.
[00:13:05] RORI: Oh my God.
[00:13:05] EMILIA: Look at her CV and how much grant funding she has just thinking about all the
reports she has to write. So I'm like, Oh my God, she has managed to balance service and science.
And she did say that young scientists are being asked to do more service. Yeah. And so they should be really protective of their time.
[00:13:25] RORI: Yes.
[00:13:26] EMILIA: Because if you don't do science, then papers are not going to be published. If papers are not going to be published, then it's going to be really difficult to get grants.
And so then, you can end up in a difficult situation.
[00:13:39] RORI: Even without, like, projecting that far, if you're in science, it's because you love doing science, right? You can't be in this field if you don't. Enjoy the actual research and so you want to make sure that you actually get to do that and doesn't mean that you don't enjoy The other organizing aspects as well.
I mean, you're right. Emilia Joann is Incredibly productive in at this point both scientific research and like institutional Transformation and kind of the change of science culture.
And it seemed like her approach that she took was that she focused really hard on her research for, until she was associate or full professor probably.
And then at that point she started picking up institutional transformation. And she went and got herself an MBA. She was like, I want to learn how to do this well before I really engage with it. So she clearly laid her path carefully.
[00:14:34] EMILIA: I think the MBA really helped her visualize all the different components that she needed to have to be successful at implementing good service.
[00:14:45] RORI: Well, I am so grateful to Dr. Joann Trejo for the incredible work that she's been doing in science for so long, and for sharing some of her insights and lessons with us.
[00:14:56] EMILIA: Yes, Dr. Joann Trejo, thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
[00:15:02] RORI: And thank you listeners for learning together alongside us. Okay, bye, Emilia.
[00:15:07] EMILIA: Bye Rory.