Season 2 |
Bonus Episode S2Bonus4: How to Build Strength and Community in STEM
[00:00:00] RORI: Okay, picture Dr. Mary Jo Ondrechen back in the 70s. This is shortly post Stonewall. She's a gay two-spirit person, computational chemist, trying to survive in the world. She doesn't feel safe asking other people if they're gay when she meets them. The way to find out if someone's gay is to ask a question like, do you ride the bus?
And if you're gay, You know, the answer is yes, I ride the bus, you family. The reason why this anecdote is so striking is because it's a way to survive. It's a way to survive and find connections in a super adversarial environment. And we just see that in spades from Dr. Mary Jo Ondrechen.
[00:00:48] EMILIA: It's unbelievable how much things have changed over her career.
Reflecting on this, I feel some hope in knowing that things can be better. And one of the things that she discussed that resonated with me was how Bad leadership can be bad for morale and for progress.
[00:01:11] RORI: She was talking about like department heads and what did she say?
She said, weak leaders, like can't build anything useful. And she said jerks in leadership are harmful. They hurt morale and they hurt progress. And we see that. We see that right now.
[00:01:26] EMILIA: Her story gives me hope. I think one of the lessons that, uh, I learned from, um, from her is that we need to find ways of connecting with people.
[00:01:39] RORI: Totally.
[00:01:40] EMILIA: She discussed how she felt isolated as an undergraduate student. She even mentioned that the undergraduate experience was way more difficult than the grad student experience. She said this more than once that we need to connect with people. This was her revise and resubmit as well.
That, uh, there were pieces of information or ways that if she had connected with people that would have provided information.
That she did not, she could not find by herself.
[00:02:09] RORI: Yeah, I think we hear this theme from so many people. We often have this kind of unhelpful idea that you need to do it on your own, that you need to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps or whatever. Uh, and in fact, we actually need to connect with each other in order to learn more, to see different perspectives and to survive and thrive.
[00:02:30] EMILIA: Yeah. And the people are, the people that you connect with, they're, they're a huge resource and they collectively know more than you will ever know as a single person.
[00:02:40] RORI: Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm just thinking, Amelia, like the other day, somebody who we know, who we connected with, sent us a link for, uh, a potential, uh, funding source to continue to make this podcast.
And without that connection, we would not know about this possible funding source. So it's very practical, in addition to being like, you know, crucial for our social survival.
[00:03:03] EMILIA: Yeah. Instead of taking like small steps, it can allow you to make big jumps into something new.
[00:03:08] RORI: Yeah. When you have support and connections, totally.
Which could bring us to the second lesson we learned from Dr. Ondrejkin, which is we can find ways to navigate bad. leadership. This is a lesson that what, you know, when we took down this interview originally, it was a little bit of a different time. Dr. Unterkin was talking about, um, departmental leadership in that context.
Uh, and she was talking about how weak leaders don't build or bring the department someplace new and that jerks in leadership like hurt morale. hurt progress, and cause problems. And on much larger scales than a department, we are seeing that happen now.
[00:03:49] EMILIA: Yes. And so one of the lessons I think it's that we have to brainstorm together and we need to find new ways to go, like, identify new solutions that are going to work under the circumstances.
[00:04:06] RORI: Yeah, yeah, we have to figure out, like, what, what matters to us, what do we want to do, and then we find new ways to get there. Like, if there is obstructive leadership that's making it difficult for you to carry out your original plan, you can find another way, like, there's always another way, like, from even you.
Mary Jo Unterkin, instead of being able to be out and ask people if they're gay, she's like, you family? Like, she found another way. The whole community found another way. And that continues to be possible. That continues to be a way to move forward together.
[00:04:41] EMILIA: Yeah. And so I think when we get a no, we need to make sure that we think about, okay, how do we get around this?
And to get a yes.
[00:04:53] RORI: Yeah, you remember, I'm actually going to bring up, uh, Dr. Joanne Trejo's story. You remember that one?
[00:04:58] EMILIA: I do, I do.
[00:04:59] RORI: Where, so she was trying to implement a new policy. I can't remember exactly what it was, a new policy at her university. And she went to the most obvious office to help her institute this.
And it, it didn't work. The office was not supportive. And so she just went back, thought about other paths forward, and found a different office, found a different way to get what she was done. To happen.
[00:05:19] EMILIA: Yeah, I think that's a lesson we can definitely, um, use.
[00:05:23] RORI: Yeah, I'm going to hold it close these days. And what do you think is the third lesson, Amelia?
[00:05:27] EMILIA: I think the third lesson is to believe in yourself through the difficult times. Um, I think one of the things she said is that her undergraduate experience was very hard. And she got through that believing in herself, and she gained that confidence. from her family. Her family told her that her mom specifically believed in her and always told her that she could do it.
And so she found strength in that and she made it. And so I think we have some agency and so we can, we have strength in that.
[00:06:05] RORI: And I, I think the kind of corollary here is to, like, believe in each other, like, Dr. Anderkin was strengthened knowing that her mom deeply believed in her. And that's something she got from her mom and her whole family, they really supported her in so many different ways.
But we can support each other and we can know. We can like see each other's power. We can see that we can accomplish the things that we're setting out to. And just knowing that and being able to bounce that back and forth helps us get there.
[00:06:29] EMILIA: Yeah. And I think we're going to find that by connecting with each other.
[00:06:32] RORI: Yeah. So these lessons are kind of all like, you know, they're kind of all connected right here today. Well, Amelia, through difficult times, I continue to be grateful to be connected with you.
[00:06:43] EMILIA: Same Rory. I'm glad that you're one. You're one of my special connections.
[00:06:48] RORI: Oh, I'm so grateful to do this with you, Amelia.
You know, we just, we find a way to do the thing that we want to do. And it turns out right now it's this podcast and, um, it's, it's something that brings me joy. Listeners. I hope that it brings you some insight. Some strategies that we can learn from these incredible scientists.
[00:07:08] EMILIA: Yeah, who have lived through lots of things.
[00:07:11] RORI: Yeah, they're totally our role models. And we're grateful that we're going to keep on talking to people.
[00:07:15] EMILIA: Well, it was great to connect with Mary Jo Ondrechen.
[00:07:18] RORI: Yes, thank you, Dr. Ondrechen for talking with us. Thank you listeners for listening.
And we will catch you next time. Bye.
And if you're gay, You know, the answer is yes, I ride the bus, you family. The reason why this anecdote is so striking is because it's a way to survive. It's a way to survive and find connections in a super adversarial environment. And we just see that in spades from Dr. Mary Jo Ondrechen.
[00:00:48] EMILIA: It's unbelievable how much things have changed over her career.
Reflecting on this, I feel some hope in knowing that things can be better. And one of the things that she discussed that resonated with me was how Bad leadership can be bad for morale and for progress.
[00:01:11] RORI: She was talking about like department heads and what did she say?
She said, weak leaders, like can't build anything useful. And she said jerks in leadership are harmful. They hurt morale and they hurt progress. And we see that. We see that right now.
[00:01:26] EMILIA: Her story gives me hope. I think one of the lessons that, uh, I learned from, um, from her is that we need to find ways of connecting with people.
[00:01:39] RORI: Totally.
[00:01:40] EMILIA: She discussed how she felt isolated as an undergraduate student. She even mentioned that the undergraduate experience was way more difficult than the grad student experience. She said this more than once that we need to connect with people. This was her revise and resubmit as well.
That, uh, there were pieces of information or ways that if she had connected with people that would have provided information.
That she did not, she could not find by herself.
[00:02:09] RORI: Yeah, I think we hear this theme from so many people. We often have this kind of unhelpful idea that you need to do it on your own, that you need to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps or whatever. Uh, and in fact, we actually need to connect with each other in order to learn more, to see different perspectives and to survive and thrive.
[00:02:30] EMILIA: Yeah. And the people are, the people that you connect with, they're, they're a huge resource and they collectively know more than you will ever know as a single person.
[00:02:40] RORI: Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm just thinking, Amelia, like the other day, somebody who we know, who we connected with, sent us a link for, uh, a potential, uh, funding source to continue to make this podcast.
And without that connection, we would not know about this possible funding source. So it's very practical, in addition to being like, you know, crucial for our social survival.
[00:03:03] EMILIA: Yeah. Instead of taking like small steps, it can allow you to make big jumps into something new.
[00:03:08] RORI: Yeah. When you have support and connections, totally.
Which could bring us to the second lesson we learned from Dr. Ondrejkin, which is we can find ways to navigate bad. leadership. This is a lesson that what, you know, when we took down this interview originally, it was a little bit of a different time. Dr. Unterkin was talking about, um, departmental leadership in that context.
Uh, and she was talking about how weak leaders don't build or bring the department someplace new and that jerks in leadership like hurt morale. hurt progress, and cause problems. And on much larger scales than a department, we are seeing that happen now.
[00:03:49] EMILIA: Yes. And so one of the lessons I think it's that we have to brainstorm together and we need to find new ways to go, like, identify new solutions that are going to work under the circumstances.
[00:04:06] RORI: Yeah, yeah, we have to figure out, like, what, what matters to us, what do we want to do, and then we find new ways to get there. Like, if there is obstructive leadership that's making it difficult for you to carry out your original plan, you can find another way, like, there's always another way, like, from even you.
Mary Jo Unterkin, instead of being able to be out and ask people if they're gay, she's like, you family? Like, she found another way. The whole community found another way. And that continues to be possible. That continues to be a way to move forward together.
[00:04:41] EMILIA: Yeah. And so I think when we get a no, we need to make sure that we think about, okay, how do we get around this?
And to get a yes.
[00:04:53] RORI: Yeah, you remember, I'm actually going to bring up, uh, Dr. Joanne Trejo's story. You remember that one?
[00:04:58] EMILIA: I do, I do.
[00:04:59] RORI: Where, so she was trying to implement a new policy. I can't remember exactly what it was, a new policy at her university. And she went to the most obvious office to help her institute this.
And it, it didn't work. The office was not supportive. And so she just went back, thought about other paths forward, and found a different office, found a different way to get what she was done. To happen.
[00:05:19] EMILIA: Yeah, I think that's a lesson we can definitely, um, use.
[00:05:23] RORI: Yeah, I'm going to hold it close these days. And what do you think is the third lesson, Amelia?
[00:05:27] EMILIA: I think the third lesson is to believe in yourself through the difficult times. Um, I think one of the things she said is that her undergraduate experience was very hard. And she got through that believing in herself, and she gained that confidence. from her family. Her family told her that her mom specifically believed in her and always told her that she could do it.
And so she found strength in that and she made it. And so I think we have some agency and so we can, we have strength in that.
[00:06:05] RORI: And I, I think the kind of corollary here is to, like, believe in each other, like, Dr. Anderkin was strengthened knowing that her mom deeply believed in her. And that's something she got from her mom and her whole family, they really supported her in so many different ways.
But we can support each other and we can know. We can like see each other's power. We can see that we can accomplish the things that we're setting out to. And just knowing that and being able to bounce that back and forth helps us get there.
[00:06:29] EMILIA: Yeah. And I think we're going to find that by connecting with each other.
[00:06:32] RORI: Yeah. So these lessons are kind of all like, you know, they're kind of all connected right here today. Well, Amelia, through difficult times, I continue to be grateful to be connected with you.
[00:06:43] EMILIA: Same Rory. I'm glad that you're one. You're one of my special connections.
[00:06:48] RORI: Oh, I'm so grateful to do this with you, Amelia.
You know, we just, we find a way to do the thing that we want to do. And it turns out right now it's this podcast and, um, it's, it's something that brings me joy. Listeners. I hope that it brings you some insight. Some strategies that we can learn from these incredible scientists.
[00:07:08] EMILIA: Yeah, who have lived through lots of things.
[00:07:11] RORI: Yeah, they're totally our role models. And we're grateful that we're going to keep on talking to people.
[00:07:15] EMILIA: Well, it was great to connect with Mary Jo Ondrechen.
[00:07:18] RORI: Yes, thank you, Dr. Ondrechen for talking with us. Thank you listeners for listening.
And we will catch you next time. Bye.