Season 2 |
Bonus Episode S2Bonus6: How to Challenge Harassment and Set Firm Boundaries
[00:00:00] RORI: Hi, listeners. We wanted to give you a heads up that today's episode has some discussion of sexual harassment.
Listener discretion is advised.
[00:00:07] EMILIA: Rory
[00:00:09] RORI: Emilia,
[00:00:09] EMILIA: I really enjoy chatting with Pilar.
[00:00:12] RORI: Oh yeah. I mean, it's like such a gift and it is so interesting when we have these conversations with people, I feel like we get to see sides of them that we don't know.
[00:00:20] EMILIA: Yeah. It, it was refreshing to hear about her background and all the challenges that she faced.
[00:00:26] RORI: Like I didn't already know, so I got to know her all new. But it's really special. I mean, one of the takeaways that I got from this is her strategy to confronting harassment.
[00:00:37] EMILIA: Yes. I mean, first of all, the story was really striking to me.
[00:00:42] RORI: Oh my God.
[00:00:42] EMILIA: Because there were a lot of details that I don't, I don't know if any person who would do that now, obviously, but I think the fact that she recognized that there was something that was wrong and did something about it was really commendable.
[00:00:55] RORI: Totally. Yeah. I mean, what he was doing, you're right, is like so over the top.
[00:01:02] EMILIA: Hello. Welcome back to our bonus episode. In this episode, Rory and I get to chat and discuss what are the takeaways and the lessons that we learned from Pilars' interview.
[00:01:14] RORI: We want to distill those lessons for you all so that you can take them with you and use them in your own science journey.
[00:01:21] EMILIA: So let's start.
When you talk to women who went to school, like in the eighties or in the seventies, you hear about these horrible stories. Everything they had to endure because they were women,
[00:01:39] RORI: like sexual harassment.
[00:01:41] EMILIA: Right. And Pilar gave us a very. Very scary examples of how this happened to her.
[00:01:49] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:50] EMILIA: Basically what happened was very clear, like some student was going above and beyond to make the environment really unwelcome for her.
[00:02:01] RORI: Oh, totally Hostile, awful.
[00:02:03] EMILIA: Yeah. And there was that creepy professor.
[00:02:05] RORI: Oh my God.
[00:02:06] EMILIA: Kept telling her all this really unacceptable things, but oh my God, I was so surprised how she handled the situation really well.
[00:02:15] RORI: I think it's an inspiration and a lesson for us. So like in both cases, the first thing she did was get somebody in power to back her up.
So whether it's the head of the lab or the head of the department, talk to that person and be really clear like, this is what's happening. It's totally unacceptable, and this is what I wanna do. She made a plan for what she wanted to have happen, and she made a plan for like the boundaries she wanted to set.
[00:02:42] EMILIA: Yeah. Once she had everything she needed, I. She got ready to confront these people Yes. And to lay out why what they were doing was wrong and why it was unacceptable. And they had to stop.
[00:02:53] RORI: I mean, what I would do to be a fly on the wall when she was like laying into them. I mean, it sounds so powerful, and I think you're right.
She chose to directly confront them. Very bold, very powerful. Not every confrontation happened that way, but she prepared for it. And then. She told them this is unacceptable and this is what you cannot do anymore. You cannot do this bloody tampons thing. You cannot put up like. Soft core porn in the laboratory.
You cannot be in this department. Everyone agrees you cannot be here.
[00:03:25] EMILIA: Also, and one thing we didn't ask her is what was the composition of the student body? Because she could have been like the only woman in the lab or
[00:03:33] RORI: mm-hmm.
[00:03:34] EMILIA: I, I don't know. And I think she created change. She made the lab environment better for everybody.
[00:03:40] RORI: Yes.
[00:03:41] EMILIA: From that point on.
[00:03:42] RORI: So I think it's a little lesson in confronting the problem can make it better, and we should say to people who are listening, your problems don't have to be as severe as B Lader were in order for them to be serious problems that. You deserve better then,
[00:03:57] EMILIA: and direct confrontation might not be the best idea for you either, but if you can get an ally or somebody that can do that, that would be great as well.
The other thing that I found really interesting and empowering is, you know, she trained as a molecular biologist. She did a PhD and a postdoc. And you know, as a person who's afraid of. Making changes. I was so inspired and impressed by the fact that she just said, you know what? I wanna go this other way and I am gonna go to law school and I want to do bioethics.
And she did it.
[00:04:34] RORI: She was like brave enough to ask herself the question, do I wanna keep on doing molecular biology or do I wanna do something different? And I think it's a hard question to ask ourselves, but she did and she answered it with clarity that she is actually, I think I can be more impactful in this other way.
And then she just started doing it. She started reading the literature in bioethics. She started contributing to the field, got herself on the review panels, and then did like a full jump.
[00:05:01] EMILIA: And I think she's like in inside. She's like a cryptic scientist still. She loves science. Totally. I think that's really.
Works well with also her experiences as in law and mm-hmm. I remember one thing that I now use sometimes when I talk about research to students. She said the way she described what it means to be a scientist. Mm-hmm. The fact that. You're trying to solve a problem and you are the first one in the world to know the answer or to solve this problem and how that's so unique and exciting.
[00:05:35] RORI: Yes.
[00:05:35] EMILIA: I think you could tell she has that love for science still,
[00:05:40] RORI: where she loved getting her PhD and doing her postdoc actually. It's not like she was unhappy doing that work, and so it makes it even more brave. It's not like she was having an awful time, but she decided there is something I would like to do different.
[00:05:54] EMILIA: But she's still doing science.
[00:05:55] RORI: Oh yeah.
[00:05:55] EMILIA: I mean, she's involved in all these research projects and which is itself a science to figure out how to assign studies. And I mean, she has done so much work on thinking about race and ethnicity and science. Yes. With respect to genetics. Yes. Which is such a complex, complex thing.
One of the things that resonated with me was when she talked about these categories that we have to select.
[00:06:20] RORI: Mm mm-hmm.
[00:06:21] EMILIA: And it's something that I always struggle with because none of the boxes that. We have to tick. I never feel well represented in any of those boxes. And so it's always, I get a little bit of anxiety just thinking, oh my God, what am I gonna answer today?
[00:06:36] RORI: So, wait, so you mean like the boxes are white, black, maybe Latina, maybe not.
[00:06:42] EMILIA: That's not even in there sometimes.
[00:06:43] RORI: Totally. It's not even there and Native Pacific Islander. And it's like, exactly. Choose one. Choose one. Emilia.
[00:06:49] EMILIA: I know. And it's like, oh my God, what am I gonna choose? And so I thought it was interesting that when they are trying to recruit research participants, one of the things that came out in the surveys when they surveyed the participants is that selecting these.
Boxes was actually anxiety-inducing. Mm-hmm. They don't enjoy it either. Mm-hmm. And it makes them feel bad because it makes it feel like they don't know what they are and who they are and it's something that, I think a lot of people struggle with that.
[00:07:14] RORI: Right. Because it also changes depending on context too.
[00:07:17] EMILIA: Exactly. Because if you go to a different country or a different region of the world, it's gonna be another set of boxes. And so Uhhuh, which is why we say that. Race is a social construct because it depends where you are, where you live, and a lot of different factors like that.
[00:07:33] RORI: So race is this like messy social construct that depends on culture and is like time and geography dependent. And I feel like science for a long time just relied on these distinct categories that are really unrealistic and based on scientific racism rather than anything about how we actually understand human variation and I feel like Pilar's work brought some reason to thinking about race. I appreciate her clarity that.
If we wanna know somebody's race, we need to know why. We want to know it before we even can imagine how to define race and ethnicity. So for example, if you are doing a study about the impact of racism on health, then the useful information might be somebody's perceived race because their perceived race is going to impact how people are racist to them.
And you can argue like there's other aspects too. Somebody's ancestral race because they inherit. Whatever their ancestors have been through in both substantive and psychological ways. But if you are gonna do a study on nutrition and vitamin D, which is the vitamin that our body manufactures with exposure to the sun, and it does so differently depending on our levels of melanin, then race might not even be as important as just skin tone.
So I guess I appreciate that in Pilars’ framework that she's been purporting for a long time now. There is no like quote unquote. Ground truth about an individual's race. It always depends on time, geography, culture, and in science. Even if we're doing scientific studies, it depends on the reason that you're interested.
[00:09:08] EMILIA: She's thought about this on so many different angles that I just learned so much when I talk to her about this topic because she's well aware of all the moving parts and how complex this issue is.
[00:09:19] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:20] EMILIA: And has thought about this in many different ways and is involved in projects that try to improve on this and how we incorporate these things into research studies and science.
[00:09:29] RORI: I feel like we talk about, you know, intersectionality a lot, but this is a case where Pilars' intersectionality of expertise of fields of lived experience has been invaluable.
[00:09:40] EMILIA: Thank you, Pilar.
[00:09:41] RORI: Thank you, Pilar. Thank you, Dr. Ossorio.
[00:09:43] EMILIA: Until next time.
[00:09:44] RORI: Catch you next time.
Listener discretion is advised.
[00:00:07] EMILIA: Rory
[00:00:09] RORI: Emilia,
[00:00:09] EMILIA: I really enjoy chatting with Pilar.
[00:00:12] RORI: Oh yeah. I mean, it's like such a gift and it is so interesting when we have these conversations with people, I feel like we get to see sides of them that we don't know.
[00:00:20] EMILIA: Yeah. It, it was refreshing to hear about her background and all the challenges that she faced.
[00:00:26] RORI: Like I didn't already know, so I got to know her all new. But it's really special. I mean, one of the takeaways that I got from this is her strategy to confronting harassment.
[00:00:37] EMILIA: Yes. I mean, first of all, the story was really striking to me.
[00:00:42] RORI: Oh my God.
[00:00:42] EMILIA: Because there were a lot of details that I don't, I don't know if any person who would do that now, obviously, but I think the fact that she recognized that there was something that was wrong and did something about it was really commendable.
[00:00:55] RORI: Totally. Yeah. I mean, what he was doing, you're right, is like so over the top.
[00:01:02] EMILIA: Hello. Welcome back to our bonus episode. In this episode, Rory and I get to chat and discuss what are the takeaways and the lessons that we learned from Pilars' interview.
[00:01:14] RORI: We want to distill those lessons for you all so that you can take them with you and use them in your own science journey.
[00:01:21] EMILIA: So let's start.
When you talk to women who went to school, like in the eighties or in the seventies, you hear about these horrible stories. Everything they had to endure because they were women,
[00:01:39] RORI: like sexual harassment.
[00:01:41] EMILIA: Right. And Pilar gave us a very. Very scary examples of how this happened to her.
[00:01:49] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:50] EMILIA: Basically what happened was very clear, like some student was going above and beyond to make the environment really unwelcome for her.
[00:02:01] RORI: Oh, totally Hostile, awful.
[00:02:03] EMILIA: Yeah. And there was that creepy professor.
[00:02:05] RORI: Oh my God.
[00:02:06] EMILIA: Kept telling her all this really unacceptable things, but oh my God, I was so surprised how she handled the situation really well.
[00:02:15] RORI: I think it's an inspiration and a lesson for us. So like in both cases, the first thing she did was get somebody in power to back her up.
So whether it's the head of the lab or the head of the department, talk to that person and be really clear like, this is what's happening. It's totally unacceptable, and this is what I wanna do. She made a plan for what she wanted to have happen, and she made a plan for like the boundaries she wanted to set.
[00:02:42] EMILIA: Yeah. Once she had everything she needed, I. She got ready to confront these people Yes. And to lay out why what they were doing was wrong and why it was unacceptable. And they had to stop.
[00:02:53] RORI: I mean, what I would do to be a fly on the wall when she was like laying into them. I mean, it sounds so powerful, and I think you're right.
She chose to directly confront them. Very bold, very powerful. Not every confrontation happened that way, but she prepared for it. And then. She told them this is unacceptable and this is what you cannot do anymore. You cannot do this bloody tampons thing. You cannot put up like. Soft core porn in the laboratory.
You cannot be in this department. Everyone agrees you cannot be here.
[00:03:25] EMILIA: Also, and one thing we didn't ask her is what was the composition of the student body? Because she could have been like the only woman in the lab or
[00:03:33] RORI: mm-hmm.
[00:03:34] EMILIA: I, I don't know. And I think she created change. She made the lab environment better for everybody.
[00:03:40] RORI: Yes.
[00:03:41] EMILIA: From that point on.
[00:03:42] RORI: So I think it's a little lesson in confronting the problem can make it better, and we should say to people who are listening, your problems don't have to be as severe as B Lader were in order for them to be serious problems that. You deserve better then,
[00:03:57] EMILIA: and direct confrontation might not be the best idea for you either, but if you can get an ally or somebody that can do that, that would be great as well.
The other thing that I found really interesting and empowering is, you know, she trained as a molecular biologist. She did a PhD and a postdoc. And you know, as a person who's afraid of. Making changes. I was so inspired and impressed by the fact that she just said, you know what? I wanna go this other way and I am gonna go to law school and I want to do bioethics.
And she did it.
[00:04:34] RORI: She was like brave enough to ask herself the question, do I wanna keep on doing molecular biology or do I wanna do something different? And I think it's a hard question to ask ourselves, but she did and she answered it with clarity that she is actually, I think I can be more impactful in this other way.
And then she just started doing it. She started reading the literature in bioethics. She started contributing to the field, got herself on the review panels, and then did like a full jump.
[00:05:01] EMILIA: And I think she's like in inside. She's like a cryptic scientist still. She loves science. Totally. I think that's really.
Works well with also her experiences as in law and mm-hmm. I remember one thing that I now use sometimes when I talk about research to students. She said the way she described what it means to be a scientist. Mm-hmm. The fact that. You're trying to solve a problem and you are the first one in the world to know the answer or to solve this problem and how that's so unique and exciting.
[00:05:35] RORI: Yes.
[00:05:35] EMILIA: I think you could tell she has that love for science still,
[00:05:40] RORI: where she loved getting her PhD and doing her postdoc actually. It's not like she was unhappy doing that work, and so it makes it even more brave. It's not like she was having an awful time, but she decided there is something I would like to do different.
[00:05:54] EMILIA: But she's still doing science.
[00:05:55] RORI: Oh yeah.
[00:05:55] EMILIA: I mean, she's involved in all these research projects and which is itself a science to figure out how to assign studies. And I mean, she has done so much work on thinking about race and ethnicity and science. Yes. With respect to genetics. Yes. Which is such a complex, complex thing.
One of the things that resonated with me was when she talked about these categories that we have to select.
[00:06:20] RORI: Mm mm-hmm.
[00:06:21] EMILIA: And it's something that I always struggle with because none of the boxes that. We have to tick. I never feel well represented in any of those boxes. And so it's always, I get a little bit of anxiety just thinking, oh my God, what am I gonna answer today?
[00:06:36] RORI: So, wait, so you mean like the boxes are white, black, maybe Latina, maybe not.
[00:06:42] EMILIA: That's not even in there sometimes.
[00:06:43] RORI: Totally. It's not even there and Native Pacific Islander. And it's like, exactly. Choose one. Choose one. Emilia.
[00:06:49] EMILIA: I know. And it's like, oh my God, what am I gonna choose? And so I thought it was interesting that when they are trying to recruit research participants, one of the things that came out in the surveys when they surveyed the participants is that selecting these.
Boxes was actually anxiety-inducing. Mm-hmm. They don't enjoy it either. Mm-hmm. And it makes them feel bad because it makes it feel like they don't know what they are and who they are and it's something that, I think a lot of people struggle with that.
[00:07:14] RORI: Right. Because it also changes depending on context too.
[00:07:17] EMILIA: Exactly. Because if you go to a different country or a different region of the world, it's gonna be another set of boxes. And so Uhhuh, which is why we say that. Race is a social construct because it depends where you are, where you live, and a lot of different factors like that.
[00:07:33] RORI: So race is this like messy social construct that depends on culture and is like time and geography dependent. And I feel like science for a long time just relied on these distinct categories that are really unrealistic and based on scientific racism rather than anything about how we actually understand human variation and I feel like Pilar's work brought some reason to thinking about race. I appreciate her clarity that.
If we wanna know somebody's race, we need to know why. We want to know it before we even can imagine how to define race and ethnicity. So for example, if you are doing a study about the impact of racism on health, then the useful information might be somebody's perceived race because their perceived race is going to impact how people are racist to them.
And you can argue like there's other aspects too. Somebody's ancestral race because they inherit. Whatever their ancestors have been through in both substantive and psychological ways. But if you are gonna do a study on nutrition and vitamin D, which is the vitamin that our body manufactures with exposure to the sun, and it does so differently depending on our levels of melanin, then race might not even be as important as just skin tone.
So I guess I appreciate that in Pilars’ framework that she's been purporting for a long time now. There is no like quote unquote. Ground truth about an individual's race. It always depends on time, geography, culture, and in science. Even if we're doing scientific studies, it depends on the reason that you're interested.
[00:09:08] EMILIA: She's thought about this on so many different angles that I just learned so much when I talk to her about this topic because she's well aware of all the moving parts and how complex this issue is.
[00:09:19] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:20] EMILIA: And has thought about this in many different ways and is involved in projects that try to improve on this and how we incorporate these things into research studies and science.
[00:09:29] RORI: I feel like we talk about, you know, intersectionality a lot, but this is a case where Pilars' intersectionality of expertise of fields of lived experience has been invaluable.
[00:09:40] EMILIA: Thank you, Pilar.
[00:09:41] RORI: Thank you, Pilar. Thank you, Dr. Ossorio.
[00:09:43] EMILIA: Until next time.
[00:09:44] RORI: Catch you next time.