Season 2 |
Bonus Episode S2Bonus8: How to Survive Science When You Can't Know Everything
[00:00:00] RORI: Emilia, we just got to talk with Dr. Anne Stone.
[00:00:02] EMILIA: I know I have this memory of giving an oral presentation at a conference,
[00:00:07] RORI: Uhhuh,
[00:00:07] EMILIA: and I see in the audience, I see Anne Stone, and then the whole time I'm giving this presentation, I'm thinking, what is Anne Stone thinking about my presentation?
[00:00:17] RORI: You're like, she's the person whose opinion matters in this room right now.
[00:00:20] EMILIA: Exactly. I'm like, oh my God. So this is just so that our listeners know how much she means to our field.
[00:00:26] RORI: Absolutely. She is one of the founders, so we're really happy that we got to talk with her and we're gonna bring you a few lessons that we learned in the process.
Lesson number one from Anne Stone. When you're in a disagreement and you feel like you are right, you can cite a higher source.
[00:00:46] EMILIA: Yeah. So this came up a couple of times during our conversation. So that time when she was working with a more senior person and there was a bit of a disagreement of how to go about informed consent.
[00:01:00] RORI: Oh, yeah. Like a problematic disagreement.
[00:01:02] EMILIA: Yes.
[00:01:03] RORI: Like the senior person was like, oh, you don't need to actually tell indigenous people the risks of the study.
[00:01:09] EMILIA: Ah, like all the risks.
[00:01:10] RORI: Yeah.
[00:01:11] EMILIA: And so she felt uncomfortable and she knew. This did not feel right. Uh, so she seek some counsel and was told to, you know, use the NSF as the reason why we need to follow these rules.
[00:01:25] RORI: Right. So the NSF was like the quote unquote higher source in this case.
[00:01:28] EMILIA: Yeah.
[00:01:29] RORI: Uhhuh. So she, so then she went to the senior person and instead of saying like, I need for us to actually do a reasonable job at informed content, she said the NSF requires us. So it kind of shielded her.
[00:01:40] EMILIA: Yes, exactly. It wasn't a personal disagreement then.
[00:01:43] RORI: Right.
But then she used this strategy other times and she even suggests that other people use it. If you're having a disagreement with a colleague about, you know, your approach to something, you can find the reason, whatever the reason is that you want to approach it your way, you can cite that and say, it's not about me.
It's about. Yeah. This other thing, it's about we must please the reviewers or it's about what the agency needs or it's about what my boss requires.
[00:02:09] EMILIA: Yeah. Or um, she also told us the story when she told one of her trainees, well, use me right. As the reason because Anne Stone wants this.
[00:02:18] RORI: Yeah. I thought that was clever.
[00:02:20] EMILIA: Okay. Lesson number two, when you have to decide, uh, what is going to be your new direction, you need to use a combination of following your interests, taking advantage of opportunities, and be strategic.
[00:02:36] RORI: And for Anne Stone, you kind of used all of these three methods. Like, you know, after her PhD, she was positioned and she talked about how she was kind of expected to go into ancient DNA work and to develop more ancient DNA methods, and she didn't follow that path. That's not what she felt excited about. She felt excited about the chimpanzee, why chromosome variation, and so she followed her interest in that case.
[00:03:00] EMILIA: Yeah. And uh, other times, I mean, more recent times when she talked about how she got into forensics, she was being strategic about how to, you know look for new funding opportunities. Yeah and, and that was strategic.
[00:03:13] RORI: She was totally strategic in that case, but there were other times when she just kind of went with an opportunity that was available to her. She talked about how she mentored students and students who were excited about something different from her work.
She gave them the space to look into that, and then it changed her research direction. So she was actually taking advantage of an opportunity then, rather than only being strategic or only following her interests. She was like a little flexible and used all three methods.
[00:03:42] EMILIA: What about lesson number three Rori?
[00:03:44] RORI: Lesson number three, learn computer programming, but remember that you can't learn everything.
[00:03:49] EMILIA: I thought that was interesting because she's achieved so much and she has so many accomplishments, but she still wishes she had the time to learn or more time to learn how to program. But yeah, I think the takeaway here is that there's always something out there that we want to learn, you have to be good at something.
[00:04:07] RORI: The caveat is that there will always continue to be something that you could learn and then be able to do even more cool science, but you can't learn everything. So there's some part of like at some point you have to be like, it's okay that I don't learn this.
But Anne Stone, I mean Anne Stone is telling us like she wishes she learned programming. So as a faculty member who has made many student programs to support students who are not into math or computer programming, to see why it's valuable and then learn it and apply it, I couldn't agree more with Anne Stone that it is a particularly useful skill and you can learn it.
[00:04:43] EMILIA: I think it can be really interesting and beautiful too.
[00:04:47] RORI: Yeah, it opened so many doors.
[00:04:49] EMILIA: Well, I wanna thank Anne Stone for taking the time to come in person to Maribel's studio with us. I had a great time hanging out with her and getting to chat about her personal journey in science, and so thank you so much, Dr. Anne Stone.
[00:05:05] RORI: Thanks, Dr. Anne Stone. Catch you next time!
[00:00:02] EMILIA: I know I have this memory of giving an oral presentation at a conference,
[00:00:07] RORI: Uhhuh,
[00:00:07] EMILIA: and I see in the audience, I see Anne Stone, and then the whole time I'm giving this presentation, I'm thinking, what is Anne Stone thinking about my presentation?
[00:00:17] RORI: You're like, she's the person whose opinion matters in this room right now.
[00:00:20] EMILIA: Exactly. I'm like, oh my God. So this is just so that our listeners know how much she means to our field.
[00:00:26] RORI: Absolutely. She is one of the founders, so we're really happy that we got to talk with her and we're gonna bring you a few lessons that we learned in the process.
Lesson number one from Anne Stone. When you're in a disagreement and you feel like you are right, you can cite a higher source.
[00:00:46] EMILIA: Yeah. So this came up a couple of times during our conversation. So that time when she was working with a more senior person and there was a bit of a disagreement of how to go about informed consent.
[00:01:00] RORI: Oh, yeah. Like a problematic disagreement.
[00:01:02] EMILIA: Yes.
[00:01:03] RORI: Like the senior person was like, oh, you don't need to actually tell indigenous people the risks of the study.
[00:01:09] EMILIA: Ah, like all the risks.
[00:01:10] RORI: Yeah.
[00:01:11] EMILIA: And so she felt uncomfortable and she knew. This did not feel right. Uh, so she seek some counsel and was told to, you know, use the NSF as the reason why we need to follow these rules.
[00:01:25] RORI: Right. So the NSF was like the quote unquote higher source in this case.
[00:01:28] EMILIA: Yeah.
[00:01:29] RORI: Uhhuh. So she, so then she went to the senior person and instead of saying like, I need for us to actually do a reasonable job at informed content, she said the NSF requires us. So it kind of shielded her.
[00:01:40] EMILIA: Yes, exactly. It wasn't a personal disagreement then.
[00:01:43] RORI: Right.
But then she used this strategy other times and she even suggests that other people use it. If you're having a disagreement with a colleague about, you know, your approach to something, you can find the reason, whatever the reason is that you want to approach it your way, you can cite that and say, it's not about me.
It's about. Yeah. This other thing, it's about we must please the reviewers or it's about what the agency needs or it's about what my boss requires.
[00:02:09] EMILIA: Yeah. Or um, she also told us the story when she told one of her trainees, well, use me right. As the reason because Anne Stone wants this.
[00:02:18] RORI: Yeah. I thought that was clever.
[00:02:20] EMILIA: Okay. Lesson number two, when you have to decide, uh, what is going to be your new direction, you need to use a combination of following your interests, taking advantage of opportunities, and be strategic.
[00:02:36] RORI: And for Anne Stone, you kind of used all of these three methods. Like, you know, after her PhD, she was positioned and she talked about how she was kind of expected to go into ancient DNA work and to develop more ancient DNA methods, and she didn't follow that path. That's not what she felt excited about. She felt excited about the chimpanzee, why chromosome variation, and so she followed her interest in that case.
[00:03:00] EMILIA: Yeah. And uh, other times, I mean, more recent times when she talked about how she got into forensics, she was being strategic about how to, you know look for new funding opportunities. Yeah and, and that was strategic.
[00:03:13] RORI: She was totally strategic in that case, but there were other times when she just kind of went with an opportunity that was available to her. She talked about how she mentored students and students who were excited about something different from her work.
She gave them the space to look into that, and then it changed her research direction. So she was actually taking advantage of an opportunity then, rather than only being strategic or only following her interests. She was like a little flexible and used all three methods.
[00:03:42] EMILIA: What about lesson number three Rori?
[00:03:44] RORI: Lesson number three, learn computer programming, but remember that you can't learn everything.
[00:03:49] EMILIA: I thought that was interesting because she's achieved so much and she has so many accomplishments, but she still wishes she had the time to learn or more time to learn how to program. But yeah, I think the takeaway here is that there's always something out there that we want to learn, you have to be good at something.
[00:04:07] RORI: The caveat is that there will always continue to be something that you could learn and then be able to do even more cool science, but you can't learn everything. So there's some part of like at some point you have to be like, it's okay that I don't learn this.
But Anne Stone, I mean Anne Stone is telling us like she wishes she learned programming. So as a faculty member who has made many student programs to support students who are not into math or computer programming, to see why it's valuable and then learn it and apply it, I couldn't agree more with Anne Stone that it is a particularly useful skill and you can learn it.
[00:04:43] EMILIA: I think it can be really interesting and beautiful too.
[00:04:47] RORI: Yeah, it opened so many doors.
[00:04:49] EMILIA: Well, I wanna thank Anne Stone for taking the time to come in person to Maribel's studio with us. I had a great time hanging out with her and getting to chat about her personal journey in science, and so thank you so much, Dr. Anne Stone.
[00:05:05] RORI: Thanks, Dr. Anne Stone. Catch you next time!