Season 1 |
Episode 1: What if we had science fairy godmothers?
[00:00:00] Emilia: Welcome to ScienceWise, a podcast designed to inspire people embarking on a career in science
[00:00:05] Rori: through conversations that will feel like hearing stories from your wisest auntie, who just so happens to be a badass scientist.
[00:00:11] Emilia: Hi, I'm Emilia Huerta Sanchez, Associate Professor of Ecology, Evolution, and Organismal Biology at Brown University,
[00:00:18] Rori: and I'm Rori Rolfe.
[00:00:19] Associate Professor of Data Science at the University of Oregon.
[00:00:21] Emilia: We are two scientists on a mission to make science more welcoming and amplify the contributions of women.
[00:00:26] Rori: Get ready to be motivated as we delve into the personal journeys of incredible scientists.
[00:00:31] Emilia: In every episode we will open up to intimate conversations with trailblazing women exploring their challenges, highs, Lows and inspiring journeys
[00:00:40] Rori: from navigating science culture, which we all know can be a little complicated to creating a supportive network in science to advocating for your community.
As a scientist, we get the issues 'cause we've been there.
[00:00:51] Emilia: That's why our episodes are packed with takeaways that will help guide you on your own career and personal journeys.
[00:00:57] Rori: Are you ready to get inspired and motivated on your science journey? Subscribe to Science-Wise today on your favorite podcast platform.
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the very first episode of ScienceWise. I'm Rori.
[00:01:10] Emilia: And I'm Emilia. Rori, I think we should start by sharing a little bit about our science paths.
[00:01:16] Rori: Okay.
So I can tell you a little about my science path. I, uh, in my undergrad, I went ahead and got two degrees in computer science and biology, which dates me, uh, because back then there were no computational biology or bioinformatics degrees.
Uh, and then, you know, little baby dyke that I was, I decided I wanted to move to the West Coast, so I went and joined a PhD program at the University of Washington, and I studied statistical genetics there. Uh, after that, I started a postdoc at UC Berkeley with Rasmus Nielsen, and I studied molecular evolution, and that postdoc was a very happy time.
I was a full grown homosexual, and I got to meet Emilia. We were in the same lab there together. But after the postdoc was done, I went and got an assistant professor job, still in the San Francisco Bay Area, at San Francisco State University, and in the biology department. And I was really shaped by that experience.
Uh, it was the first time I was in a science context where there were a lot of women around, both faculty and students. I was surrounded by incredible mentors. I feel very lucky for that start of my faculty experience. And more recently, I have moved to the University of Oregon. Now I'm an associate professor in data science, and I'm using all those experiences to try to create a badass department.
What about you, Emilia? Tell me about your science path.
[00:02:50] Emilia: Well, my undergraduate degrees are in math and French. So initially I wanted to be an interpreter. And so that's why I chose French. And I was actually not a math major at the beginning. I was an econ major, but I became a math major because I wanted to go to Puerto Rico, and I'll tell you the story about that later.
[00:03:14] Rori: I can't wait.
[00:03:14] Emilia: Then, went on to do a PhD in Applied Math at Cornell University, where I got interested in population genetics. Then, afterwards, I did a postdoc at UC Berkeley. And that's where I met Rori. Then I moved on and became an assistant professor at UC Merced and then moved to Brown. And right now I'm an associate professor at Brown in Ecology, Evolution and Organismal Biology, but I'm also part of the Center for Computational Molecular Biology, which is also housed within Data Science. So we're both in Data Science now.
[00:03:50] Rori: Yeah, we've come back together. Okay, now you all know a little bit about Emilia and Mai's paths in science so far. Emilia, let's talk about what inspired us to do this. Why are we making ScienceWise?
[00:04:01] Emilia: Well, in my career, there's always, I feel like we're always in a new situation where I go, oh my god, What am I going to do now? And so talking to others, especially women with more experience than me, has been really helpful in navigating new situations. And so I think selfishly, what I want is to be mentored by these women. And I get to do that by interviewing them. And so these women have acquired. So much knowledge and experience, and, you know, I think it needs to be recorded, not just for us, but for future generations. I mean, they've done so much. They've navigated new academic systems. They have managed not only to survive, but also to be successful. And I know that their trajectories probably haven't been linear. There's been some bumps and loops and new directions. And so I think we can learn a thing or two that may be applicable. To our own career or lives. I'm always curious about the experience of women. Women in science has changed over time. And the truth is that I cannot go back 150 years ago, 60 or a hundred years and ask them, uh, and talk to women and ask them about their experience.
[00:05:11] Rori: Yeah.
[00:05:12] Emilia: And so I think this is, uh, also us providing information about what that experience is like right now or in the last, say 20 years.
And so people can go back. And, and learn about it. I will just say that I love talking to women. I love the energy that gets created when you have women in a room. And I hope we can recreate something like that in this podcast.
[00:05:34] Rori: Yeah. I think it's interesting, part of, part of what you're saying is that like, you kind of wish you had had this podcast and you wish that you had had this podcast from a hundred years ago. Obviously that's not a thing that could have existed, but you're like, what were women a hundred years ago in science? What were they doing? What were they thinking? What were their stories? How, how did they, how did they make any of that happen? And so you're like, but let's, let's do what we can now. Back when we were postdocs together at UC Berkeley, we were reading some old papers and we noticed these acknowledgements that would say, like, there'd be like this whole paper. And then at the very end, it would be like, and thank you to Mrs. J. Smith for having programmed the script, uh, ran the analyses, done the statistical work and plotted the graphs. And we were like, what the hell? That's a, that's a PhD thesis. And this person wasn't even an author. She was just put in the acknowledgements. And so then when we were, uh, in our first assistant professor jobs, we went back and we looked at the literature and we did this quantitative analysis that showed that it was disproportionately women who were given acknowledgments instead of authorship. And I mean, Emilia, that project was so fun and it felt powerful, but it. We were really missing like the stories. We were like, what were these women's experiences like, you know, what was it like to be Jay Smith and to be doing all of that work and getting acknowledgments while other people's careers were doing something different?
[00:07:07] Emilia: Yeah. I got a lot of comments like, Oh, but women were just like second secretaries.
[00:07:12] They were not really programmers. So. I think people didn't want to believe that they were actually doing intellectual work. But we couldn't talk to them.
[00:07:20] Rori: Yeah, there's all of this kind of like disparaging remarks. They're like, oh, that's just clerical work. And you're like, it doesn't sound like clerical work. But, but we couldn't, we couldn't prove it. Except for Margaret Woo, who we got to speak with. She was, and I mean, that was incredible. And like. You know, a story in itself, but we got to speak with this woman, Margaret Wu, who had been acknowledged a ton of times in population genetics, but then it turns out in other fields, too. She had done all of the statistical work in, like, economics and physics and chemistry and, like, whatever. Talking to her was, like, totally inspirational and incredible, and we, we learned what she was doing. I mean, nobody could argue was not intellectual work. She was doing the same work as grad students, just not getting a PhD for it. I mean, her story is amazing. We could go on about her, but I feel like the lessons I learned from speaking with her are things that I take with me today too, and kind of just like highlights the importance of talking with women who have been in the field for a long time, particularly women with different experiences than me.
You know, there's so, there are so many examples of times when I wish I had known more or been, had more context or had some support,
[00:08:31] Emilia: like a hotline where you're like, I need to, I'm having this problem. Can you,
[00:08:37] Rori: please help me. Oh my God. Science hotline. Yeah, totally, totally. You could have like a technical hotline, but you're also just like navigating science hotline. I would love that. I guess we're not making a hotline, but instead we're trying to make this resource for people to get different ideas about how to navigate. Emilia, is there a time when you felt like the odds were against you in your science career and you could have used some sort of science hotline?
[00:09:05] Emilia: Yeah. So I took a class, I mean, I was taking classes and I got a C in one of my courses and a C for a grad student class is like an F. So students don't get Cs. And so I was called into the office, um, of the director and the director told me that I should reconsider being in grad school. And so that was difficult because I didn't know if I should listen to them or if I should, yeah, it was just, I didn't know what to do.
[00:09:34] Rori: Yeah, this is the thing about advice. You're like, is that good advice or bad advice? It feels like unsupportive, shitty advice, but, but you're a first year grad student, so you didn't know.
[00:09:43] Emilia: Exactly. And so I think, so that was something that I wish I had somebody to talk to. And eventually I did, but not immediately.
What about you, Rori?
[00:09:54] Rori: My first year of grad school. So first I, I applied, I got into a program that had rotations. So, you know, you work in different labs for like, at that time it was like 10 weeks. And then you choose one, you have three rotations and you choose. Um, also it makes sense that I got into a program with rotations because I applied to direct admit programs, but I didn't know that you needed to. Email the faculty who you were excited about. So I didn't get into any of those. So, but anyway, so I was in this rotation program and, uh, I did my first rotation and it was like fine, but I didn't feel excited and it was like all men. Like, a big lab, all men. Um, which I was used to, but I didn't love. And then I did my second rotation in a statgen lab, and I was really into it, I really enjoyed it, but the PI was leaving. And so, then I did my third rotation in another statgen lab, because I was like, oh, I like this, I like statistical genetics, like, this is cool. And, uh, in that one, it, The PI didn't have a lot of time for me, or he didn't, he met with me like once or twice, but not much. And I started working with his grad student and a postdoc in another lab on a little project. And it went well. It went so well that we were gonna make like a small publication . And the idea was that like all of us would be authors, like the PI was going to be an author and the grad student who I was working with and the postdoc from the other lab and me were like all going to be authors and make this like tiny publication. And that felt really cool. And the PI found out and he like. Lost it. He got really angry at me. He accused me. I know he accused me of stealing his ideas He sent this email. I still have it where he tells me that like I don't have the technical skills to do this work like Clearly I couldn't have done it on my own which I never Like I was collaborating, you know, but anyway, and he told me that he was going to blacklist me. He said like, it's a small statistical genetics community. And if word gets out about like your terrible behavior, then you know, you're never going to find a lab. And I was like, so scared. I felt so bad.
[00:12:09] Emilia: Yeah. That sounds really scary. When a senior person comes and tells you you're going to be blacklisted.
[00:12:15] Rori: Yeah, totally. I was, and I didn't know, I was like, oh, is this my exit of science right now? This is it. I didn't make it through a year of grad school. And also I didn't have a lab. You're supposed to have a lab after three rotations and clearly I couldn't join his lab. I did manage through it in part because the person who became my PhD advisor like stood up for me and was like, you know, she didn't really do anything wrong. But, uh, so I'm always grateful for that. Uh, but then I think back, I think one of the things that got me through emotionally over the next months and started helping me to feel less bad about myself versus seeing that this pattern play out, like this PI had this pattern with other people. It's clearly, it was a bad situation and the problem was not me.
Um, and I also thought about this thing that. A faculty member had said, one of the very few women faculty members, who was not my mentor, but I was just talking with her one time. And I just remember she like, looked in my eyes and she was like, Rori, I don't collaborate with assholes anymore. And at the time, I didn't really think of it. I was like, okay, that's cool, whatever. But now, but then a couple months later, I was like, oh, she meant like that guy. She was like, I don't collaborate with people like that. I still think about that, you know?
[00:13:31] Emilia: But yeah, it's really,
I think it's really hard when you are being targeted, right? Because then you realize, Oh my God, what am I going to do? Um, who am I going to tell? Like who's going to help me?
[00:13:42] Rori: Totally.
[00:13:42] Emilia: And I think it can be really lonely and scary.
[00:13:46] Rori: Yeah, yeah, totally. And I mean, clearly what he was saying was designed to make me feel that way, right? To make me feel more isolated and whatever. But that's, like, there's just this tiny nugget of wisdom from this woman who I had, like, a 15 minute interaction with, and that's something that brought me up. And so I guess that's part of why I'm excited about science wise and talking with women with decades of experience, because I'm like, if one tiny interaction can be so useful for me, what about, like, hearing bigger stories?
[00:14:17] Emilia: I agree. I think I'm always surprised by how much you can learn in these. Random interaction sometimes.
[00:14:25] Rori: When has this happened for you, Emilia?
[00:14:27] Emilia: I think for me, it was when I was an undergrad, and I met the person who had been to that research summer experience.
[00:14:34] Rori: Uh huh.
[00:14:34] Emilia: And she just said, Oh, I'm a math major, and I just came back from Puerto Rico, and, you know, um, I was doing research. And I said, What? And I think what caught my interest, though, was that it was free.
[00:14:49] Rori: Uh huh.
[00:14:49] Emilia: They pay for everything, and she got paid.
[00:14:52] Rori: Yeah.
[00:14:52] Emilia: Which to me sounded like she got paid to do homework, math homework. And so
[00:14:58] Rori: And you were like, I love all of it. I love the math homework. I love getting paid. Let's go.
[00:15:03] Emilia: Exactly.
[00:15:04] And so, you know, that was just like a gathering of, you know, she was a senior, I was a freshman.
It was, she was not there to mentor me, uh, but we were just chatting and that really intrigued me. So that really changed my life because You know, I switched into science and math.
[00:15:22] Rori: And here you are. I'm like, yeah, that's amazing. Like these tiny interactions. And she wasn't like even that much more experienced than you. She had like three or more years of experience than you did, but enough to tell you something that changed your life.
[00:15:35] Emilia: Exactly.
[00:15:36] Rori: Wow.
[00:15:37] Emilia: That's, I mean, but I think that's what we're trying to change, right? We don't want people to be, to get lucky. We want it to be like a common thing.
[00:15:45] Rori: Yeah. Like you were lucky that you were in the room with her. I was lucky that this woman gave me 15 minutes of her time. But what if, what if this wisdom was just usual? What if it was easy to get? I mean, and of course there's this podcast is not the only way, you know, obviously it's like, well, hire more women scientists and retain them in the field.
[00:16:03] Emilia: Uh, Yeah.
[00:16:05] Rori: Okay, so we are thrilled to make this ScienceWise podcast. It is so much fun and we're so enjoying it. And what can you all, listeners, expect? We're going to be releasing an episode every other week for our first season that we're trying out now. Each episode, well the usual interview episodes will be 35 to 40 minute interviews with some badass woman in science or another STEM field.
[00:16:30] Emilia: And, in addition, we'll have a bonus recap episode every other week where we discuss our biggest takeaways from each interview.
[00:16:38] Rori: So I mean, that's not that different from Emilia and I talking after like a journal club or a seminar about the, the lessons that we really got from it and that we want to highlight for you listeners.
[00:16:51] Emilia: And how can you support us for this podcast? Well, you could share it with your friends. You could text it to someone who could use the insight. You can assign an episode for your class or write us a review and include your questions, topics that you would like to hear about, or maybe you know about a badass scientist who you'd like us to interview.
[00:17:11] Rori: We are so grateful for your support and for your attention here on ScienceWise. We can't wait to start this journey with you. Catch you on the next episode. Thanks for listening.
[00:00:05] Rori: through conversations that will feel like hearing stories from your wisest auntie, who just so happens to be a badass scientist.
[00:00:11] Emilia: Hi, I'm Emilia Huerta Sanchez, Associate Professor of Ecology, Evolution, and Organismal Biology at Brown University,
[00:00:18] Rori: and I'm Rori Rolfe.
[00:00:19] Associate Professor of Data Science at the University of Oregon.
[00:00:21] Emilia: We are two scientists on a mission to make science more welcoming and amplify the contributions of women.
[00:00:26] Rori: Get ready to be motivated as we delve into the personal journeys of incredible scientists.
[00:00:31] Emilia: In every episode we will open up to intimate conversations with trailblazing women exploring their challenges, highs, Lows and inspiring journeys
[00:00:40] Rori: from navigating science culture, which we all know can be a little complicated to creating a supportive network in science to advocating for your community.
As a scientist, we get the issues 'cause we've been there.
[00:00:51] Emilia: That's why our episodes are packed with takeaways that will help guide you on your own career and personal journeys.
[00:00:57] Rori: Are you ready to get inspired and motivated on your science journey? Subscribe to Science-Wise today on your favorite podcast platform.
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the very first episode of ScienceWise. I'm Rori.
[00:01:10] Emilia: And I'm Emilia. Rori, I think we should start by sharing a little bit about our science paths.
[00:01:16] Rori: Okay.
So I can tell you a little about my science path. I, uh, in my undergrad, I went ahead and got two degrees in computer science and biology, which dates me, uh, because back then there were no computational biology or bioinformatics degrees.
Uh, and then, you know, little baby dyke that I was, I decided I wanted to move to the West Coast, so I went and joined a PhD program at the University of Washington, and I studied statistical genetics there. Uh, after that, I started a postdoc at UC Berkeley with Rasmus Nielsen, and I studied molecular evolution, and that postdoc was a very happy time.
I was a full grown homosexual, and I got to meet Emilia. We were in the same lab there together. But after the postdoc was done, I went and got an assistant professor job, still in the San Francisco Bay Area, at San Francisco State University, and in the biology department. And I was really shaped by that experience.
Uh, it was the first time I was in a science context where there were a lot of women around, both faculty and students. I was surrounded by incredible mentors. I feel very lucky for that start of my faculty experience. And more recently, I have moved to the University of Oregon. Now I'm an associate professor in data science, and I'm using all those experiences to try to create a badass department.
What about you, Emilia? Tell me about your science path.
[00:02:50] Emilia: Well, my undergraduate degrees are in math and French. So initially I wanted to be an interpreter. And so that's why I chose French. And I was actually not a math major at the beginning. I was an econ major, but I became a math major because I wanted to go to Puerto Rico, and I'll tell you the story about that later.
[00:03:14] Rori: I can't wait.
[00:03:14] Emilia: Then, went on to do a PhD in Applied Math at Cornell University, where I got interested in population genetics. Then, afterwards, I did a postdoc at UC Berkeley. And that's where I met Rori. Then I moved on and became an assistant professor at UC Merced and then moved to Brown. And right now I'm an associate professor at Brown in Ecology, Evolution and Organismal Biology, but I'm also part of the Center for Computational Molecular Biology, which is also housed within Data Science. So we're both in Data Science now.
[00:03:50] Rori: Yeah, we've come back together. Okay, now you all know a little bit about Emilia and Mai's paths in science so far. Emilia, let's talk about what inspired us to do this. Why are we making ScienceWise?
[00:04:01] Emilia: Well, in my career, there's always, I feel like we're always in a new situation where I go, oh my god, What am I going to do now? And so talking to others, especially women with more experience than me, has been really helpful in navigating new situations. And so I think selfishly, what I want is to be mentored by these women. And I get to do that by interviewing them. And so these women have acquired. So much knowledge and experience, and, you know, I think it needs to be recorded, not just for us, but for future generations. I mean, they've done so much. They've navigated new academic systems. They have managed not only to survive, but also to be successful. And I know that their trajectories probably haven't been linear. There's been some bumps and loops and new directions. And so I think we can learn a thing or two that may be applicable. To our own career or lives. I'm always curious about the experience of women. Women in science has changed over time. And the truth is that I cannot go back 150 years ago, 60 or a hundred years and ask them, uh, and talk to women and ask them about their experience.
[00:05:11] Rori: Yeah.
[00:05:12] Emilia: And so I think this is, uh, also us providing information about what that experience is like right now or in the last, say 20 years.
And so people can go back. And, and learn about it. I will just say that I love talking to women. I love the energy that gets created when you have women in a room. And I hope we can recreate something like that in this podcast.
[00:05:34] Rori: Yeah. I think it's interesting, part of, part of what you're saying is that like, you kind of wish you had had this podcast and you wish that you had had this podcast from a hundred years ago. Obviously that's not a thing that could have existed, but you're like, what were women a hundred years ago in science? What were they doing? What were they thinking? What were their stories? How, how did they, how did they make any of that happen? And so you're like, but let's, let's do what we can now. Back when we were postdocs together at UC Berkeley, we were reading some old papers and we noticed these acknowledgements that would say, like, there'd be like this whole paper. And then at the very end, it would be like, and thank you to Mrs. J. Smith for having programmed the script, uh, ran the analyses, done the statistical work and plotted the graphs. And we were like, what the hell? That's a, that's a PhD thesis. And this person wasn't even an author. She was just put in the acknowledgements. And so then when we were, uh, in our first assistant professor jobs, we went back and we looked at the literature and we did this quantitative analysis that showed that it was disproportionately women who were given acknowledgments instead of authorship. And I mean, Emilia, that project was so fun and it felt powerful, but it. We were really missing like the stories. We were like, what were these women's experiences like, you know, what was it like to be Jay Smith and to be doing all of that work and getting acknowledgments while other people's careers were doing something different?
[00:07:07] Emilia: Yeah. I got a lot of comments like, Oh, but women were just like second secretaries.
[00:07:12] They were not really programmers. So. I think people didn't want to believe that they were actually doing intellectual work. But we couldn't talk to them.
[00:07:20] Rori: Yeah, there's all of this kind of like disparaging remarks. They're like, oh, that's just clerical work. And you're like, it doesn't sound like clerical work. But, but we couldn't, we couldn't prove it. Except for Margaret Woo, who we got to speak with. She was, and I mean, that was incredible. And like. You know, a story in itself, but we got to speak with this woman, Margaret Wu, who had been acknowledged a ton of times in population genetics, but then it turns out in other fields, too. She had done all of the statistical work in, like, economics and physics and chemistry and, like, whatever. Talking to her was, like, totally inspirational and incredible, and we, we learned what she was doing. I mean, nobody could argue was not intellectual work. She was doing the same work as grad students, just not getting a PhD for it. I mean, her story is amazing. We could go on about her, but I feel like the lessons I learned from speaking with her are things that I take with me today too, and kind of just like highlights the importance of talking with women who have been in the field for a long time, particularly women with different experiences than me.
You know, there's so, there are so many examples of times when I wish I had known more or been, had more context or had some support,
[00:08:31] Emilia: like a hotline where you're like, I need to, I'm having this problem. Can you,
[00:08:37] Rori: please help me. Oh my God. Science hotline. Yeah, totally, totally. You could have like a technical hotline, but you're also just like navigating science hotline. I would love that. I guess we're not making a hotline, but instead we're trying to make this resource for people to get different ideas about how to navigate. Emilia, is there a time when you felt like the odds were against you in your science career and you could have used some sort of science hotline?
[00:09:05] Emilia: Yeah. So I took a class, I mean, I was taking classes and I got a C in one of my courses and a C for a grad student class is like an F. So students don't get Cs. And so I was called into the office, um, of the director and the director told me that I should reconsider being in grad school. And so that was difficult because I didn't know if I should listen to them or if I should, yeah, it was just, I didn't know what to do.
[00:09:34] Rori: Yeah, this is the thing about advice. You're like, is that good advice or bad advice? It feels like unsupportive, shitty advice, but, but you're a first year grad student, so you didn't know.
[00:09:43] Emilia: Exactly. And so I think, so that was something that I wish I had somebody to talk to. And eventually I did, but not immediately.
What about you, Rori?
[00:09:54] Rori: My first year of grad school. So first I, I applied, I got into a program that had rotations. So, you know, you work in different labs for like, at that time it was like 10 weeks. And then you choose one, you have three rotations and you choose. Um, also it makes sense that I got into a program with rotations because I applied to direct admit programs, but I didn't know that you needed to. Email the faculty who you were excited about. So I didn't get into any of those. So, but anyway, so I was in this rotation program and, uh, I did my first rotation and it was like fine, but I didn't feel excited and it was like all men. Like, a big lab, all men. Um, which I was used to, but I didn't love. And then I did my second rotation in a statgen lab, and I was really into it, I really enjoyed it, but the PI was leaving. And so, then I did my third rotation in another statgen lab, because I was like, oh, I like this, I like statistical genetics, like, this is cool. And, uh, in that one, it, The PI didn't have a lot of time for me, or he didn't, he met with me like once or twice, but not much. And I started working with his grad student and a postdoc in another lab on a little project. And it went well. It went so well that we were gonna make like a small publication . And the idea was that like all of us would be authors, like the PI was going to be an author and the grad student who I was working with and the postdoc from the other lab and me were like all going to be authors and make this like tiny publication. And that felt really cool. And the PI found out and he like. Lost it. He got really angry at me. He accused me. I know he accused me of stealing his ideas He sent this email. I still have it where he tells me that like I don't have the technical skills to do this work like Clearly I couldn't have done it on my own which I never Like I was collaborating, you know, but anyway, and he told me that he was going to blacklist me. He said like, it's a small statistical genetics community. And if word gets out about like your terrible behavior, then you know, you're never going to find a lab. And I was like, so scared. I felt so bad.
[00:12:09] Emilia: Yeah. That sounds really scary. When a senior person comes and tells you you're going to be blacklisted.
[00:12:15] Rori: Yeah, totally. I was, and I didn't know, I was like, oh, is this my exit of science right now? This is it. I didn't make it through a year of grad school. And also I didn't have a lab. You're supposed to have a lab after three rotations and clearly I couldn't join his lab. I did manage through it in part because the person who became my PhD advisor like stood up for me and was like, you know, she didn't really do anything wrong. But, uh, so I'm always grateful for that. Uh, but then I think back, I think one of the things that got me through emotionally over the next months and started helping me to feel less bad about myself versus seeing that this pattern play out, like this PI had this pattern with other people. It's clearly, it was a bad situation and the problem was not me.
Um, and I also thought about this thing that. A faculty member had said, one of the very few women faculty members, who was not my mentor, but I was just talking with her one time. And I just remember she like, looked in my eyes and she was like, Rori, I don't collaborate with assholes anymore. And at the time, I didn't really think of it. I was like, okay, that's cool, whatever. But now, but then a couple months later, I was like, oh, she meant like that guy. She was like, I don't collaborate with people like that. I still think about that, you know?
[00:13:31] Emilia: But yeah, it's really,
I think it's really hard when you are being targeted, right? Because then you realize, Oh my God, what am I going to do? Um, who am I going to tell? Like who's going to help me?
[00:13:42] Rori: Totally.
[00:13:42] Emilia: And I think it can be really lonely and scary.
[00:13:46] Rori: Yeah, yeah, totally. And I mean, clearly what he was saying was designed to make me feel that way, right? To make me feel more isolated and whatever. But that's, like, there's just this tiny nugget of wisdom from this woman who I had, like, a 15 minute interaction with, and that's something that brought me up. And so I guess that's part of why I'm excited about science wise and talking with women with decades of experience, because I'm like, if one tiny interaction can be so useful for me, what about, like, hearing bigger stories?
[00:14:17] Emilia: I agree. I think I'm always surprised by how much you can learn in these. Random interaction sometimes.
[00:14:25] Rori: When has this happened for you, Emilia?
[00:14:27] Emilia: I think for me, it was when I was an undergrad, and I met the person who had been to that research summer experience.
[00:14:34] Rori: Uh huh.
[00:14:34] Emilia: And she just said, Oh, I'm a math major, and I just came back from Puerto Rico, and, you know, um, I was doing research. And I said, What? And I think what caught my interest, though, was that it was free.
[00:14:49] Rori: Uh huh.
[00:14:49] Emilia: They pay for everything, and she got paid.
[00:14:52] Rori: Yeah.
[00:14:52] Emilia: Which to me sounded like she got paid to do homework, math homework. And so
[00:14:58] Rori: And you were like, I love all of it. I love the math homework. I love getting paid. Let's go.
[00:15:03] Emilia: Exactly.
[00:15:04] And so, you know, that was just like a gathering of, you know, she was a senior, I was a freshman.
It was, she was not there to mentor me, uh, but we were just chatting and that really intrigued me. So that really changed my life because You know, I switched into science and math.
[00:15:22] Rori: And here you are. I'm like, yeah, that's amazing. Like these tiny interactions. And she wasn't like even that much more experienced than you. She had like three or more years of experience than you did, but enough to tell you something that changed your life.
[00:15:35] Emilia: Exactly.
[00:15:36] Rori: Wow.
[00:15:37] Emilia: That's, I mean, but I think that's what we're trying to change, right? We don't want people to be, to get lucky. We want it to be like a common thing.
[00:15:45] Rori: Yeah. Like you were lucky that you were in the room with her. I was lucky that this woman gave me 15 minutes of her time. But what if, what if this wisdom was just usual? What if it was easy to get? I mean, and of course there's this podcast is not the only way, you know, obviously it's like, well, hire more women scientists and retain them in the field.
[00:16:03] Emilia: Uh, Yeah.
[00:16:05] Rori: Okay, so we are thrilled to make this ScienceWise podcast. It is so much fun and we're so enjoying it. And what can you all, listeners, expect? We're going to be releasing an episode every other week for our first season that we're trying out now. Each episode, well the usual interview episodes will be 35 to 40 minute interviews with some badass woman in science or another STEM field.
[00:16:30] Emilia: And, in addition, we'll have a bonus recap episode every other week where we discuss our biggest takeaways from each interview.
[00:16:38] Rori: So I mean, that's not that different from Emilia and I talking after like a journal club or a seminar about the, the lessons that we really got from it and that we want to highlight for you listeners.
[00:16:51] Emilia: And how can you support us for this podcast? Well, you could share it with your friends. You could text it to someone who could use the insight. You can assign an episode for your class or write us a review and include your questions, topics that you would like to hear about, or maybe you know about a badass scientist who you'd like us to interview.
[00:17:11] Rori: We are so grateful for your support and for your attention here on ScienceWise. We can't wait to start this journey with you. Catch you on the next episode. Thanks for listening.