Season 1 |
Episode 2: Integrating science to fit your life with, Dr. Carmen Domingo
[00:00:00] Rori: You're listening to ScienceWise, a podcast designed to inspire scientists with conversations that feel like talking with your wisest auntie, who is coincidentally a badass scientist. I'm Rori. You'll hear from Emilia later on this episode. She's busy moving this week. Together, we are two scientists on a mission to make the world of science more welcoming, and to amplify the contributions of women.
Today, we are thrilled to introduce our guest, Dr. Carmen Domingo. The first woman dean of the College of Science and Engineering at San Francisco State University. I got to know Carmen when I first got my faculty job at SF State. For decades, Dr. Domingo has been working so hard to create welcoming and inclusive scientific environments.
Dr. Domingo grew up in Hawthorne and Inglewood, Los Angeles. Studied science in California public schools from kindergarten through her PhD in molecular and cell biology at the University of California, Berkeley. Her laboratory research focused on the cellular and molecular pathways that underlie how muscle cells develop in embryos.
Today, we're going to hear about how, even when faced with an exclusive culture in science, Dr. Domingo developed, persisted, and thrived as a scientist.
Carmen, I first got to know you when I started my faculty position at SF State. At that time, you were associate chair in biology, and the first time I had a real interaction with you was at my very first faculty meeting, my first department meeting in biology. Which I showed up to with a seven-month-old baby and a course proposal to discuss and you didn't miss a beat. You just immediately were like, Oh, let me hold your baby while you get settled here. and you like completely normalized having a child with you in department meetings while you're doing something like proposing new courses. and then when we started discussing the course, you had, like, useful, you know, actually, like, useful critical feedback and you clarified the process so that we could get the course through, uh, more efficiently.
So I feel like that was my first introduction to you. You bring the substantive critical feedback, you bring the, like, how can we make this happen, and you're, like, there for somebody's whole self and their baby at the same time.
[00:02:20] Carmen: for that. I appreciate the memory.
[00:02:22] Rori: Well, yeah. I mean, it's such a good one. and.
You know, it's just part of saying, like, I'm so thrilled to have you on this show, so thank you for joining us. Uh, so, you grew up in Los Angeles, right?
[00:02:32] Carmen: I was born and raised in Englewood, California.
[00:02:35] Rori: and, I mean, what was it like in Englewood back then when you were growing up?
[00:02:40] Carmen: At the time, my dad was a teacher, a math teacher, uh, at a private, small university.
and at night, he was a graduate student, actually, at UCLA, getting his
Ph.D. In engineering my mom was a stay-at-home mom, and so my dad was raising three kids on a pretty minimal salary. It took him nine years to get his Ph. D., and I always think, you know, we all know how hard it is to get a Ph. D., but I, I can't imagine, you know, having an outside job raising a family of three.
[00:03:20] Rori: Oh my gosh.
[00:03:22] Carmen: When I said I wanted to get, to pursue a PhD, he was mixed about it, because in his perspective it was a very challenging pursuit, and not one that really, he, he didn't feel that financially.
[00:03:36] Rori: That's so interesting that then he had mixed feelings because his own experience was difficult. and financially, but, but so you grew up with this idea of academia, but this idea of academia in like kind of strenuous circumstances.
[00:03:48] Carmen: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, that idea of doing a PhD, it was, it wasn't something that I thought of until I was in, you know, I guess in undergrad, I think because my father was educated, my mother was not.
She finished high school and was not educated, and her story is very different from my father's because she was born and raised in Venezuela, a very sort of traditional environment where women were not encouraged to go and advance themselves, and so then she met my father when he was a student.
[00:04:23] Rori: So at what point did you get interested in science for yourself?
[00:04:27] Carmen: So I think, you know, it was part of our environment. My dad's father is a doctor in Spain, in Barcelona. and we would go and visit, and he would see patients in his home. and so, he would care for the patients in his two or three blocks around his neighborhood. and so, we thought that was cool. We would open the door and welcome his patients in and so I think, you know, being around kind of medicine and science, I think it was. It was, it was part of my upbringing.
[00:05:04] Rori: I mean, I think that's really cool.
[00:05:06] Emilia: One thing that it's really cool about you that I like is that you're a product of the public school system. You did your undergrad, your grad school, and even your postdoc, and now you work at a public institution as well. Could you describe what your experience was like entering and developing in academia?
[00:05:29] Carmen: When I first went to UC Irvine, it was a challenge, honestly. I don't think, I, I, I didn't know what to expect. I thought Orange County would be just like a continuation of LA. Irvine at that time was not very diverse. It was very politically conservative too.
I don't think I had expected that. I was a pre med. and so, Irvine at that time, you know, well it has a medical school, and so it had a, you know, a lot of students went there as pre-meds in the hopes that they could enter the medical school there. and that environment was so aggressive. It was not a very welcoming and nurturing place and I was kind of stubborn because, you know, a lot of people who changed their majors and were not a biology major. I had the opportunity in my it was the beginning of my junior year, end of my sophomore year, where I had heard from a friend about doing research. and so, you know, that's why, you know, here at State, I realized how important it is to provide people a home in a research lab, because that's what it was like for me and I got introduced first to some, a chemistry research group, and then I switched over to a developmental biology. Research group, which, you know, really was the basis of my. My love of embryology and at the time I've had a bunch of different jobs when I first started and my freshman year I worked in the dorm cafeteria serving food then I you know, I worked at a pizza place and when I found the embryology lab the PI there asked me what you know How I was supporting myself and and then she said well, what do you think if I could pay you?
10 20 hours a week in my lab. I was like, oh my gosh like That just made all the difference in the world. So after I did that and I graduated, I still wasn't sure that I wanted to continue with my education. I was exhausted you know, it was difficult experience, even though I did like the work in the lab, I didn't quite see myself continuing.
[00:07:41] Emilia: Could you say more about why you didn't see yourself continuing? You said you were burnt out a little bit, but was that all there was?
[00:07:49] Carmen: Well, I mean, there were all these things. I mean, I'll tell you one thing that was quite painful, which in my senior year, they had honors for students who did research, and you had to you had to do a poster presentation.
You had to write a senior thesis. and so when I wrote my senior thesis, um, it went to, I don't know, a faculty member for review. and what I got sent back was a critique and it was erased because what it said was, this was the best thesis I read too bad the student didn't write it.
[00:08:31] Rori: What?
[00:08:32] Carmen: Yeah. and so I went to my PI at the time, and she was adjunct faculty, and I showed her. But she didn't really do anything, so I wrote a letter to the faculty. I don't know if it was the dean or the chair or the faculty member. and I said that I was very hurt, and I copied the thing, and I said, I was very hurt by this implication. I worked incredibly hard on this. If they had any questions, why not speak with me or speak with my mentor before writing such a statement?
It was erased, but you could see it. So maybe they thought because it was kind of erased, I wouldn't read it, but I could read it. They never responded to the letter that I wrote. I was given honors, but it negated it negated something that I had worked so hard to do. and the only thing I could think is Why would they have second-guessed my ability to write this?
[00:09:34] Carmen: and I thought, well, because my name is Carmen Domingo. Maybe she doesn't write good English. I mean, I don't know. But they didn't even take the time to speak with me.
[00:09:43] Rori: That's so insulting. That's like, ugh.
[00:09:46] Carmen: So, you know, there were, you know, there's always things like that that I think, um, women, women of color, experienced Latinos and so you just kind of put it aside and you already have your own sense of like, do I belong or not? and that just compounds a sense of, uh, maybe you're just not good enough, you know? So I just figured I needed a break.
[00:10:08] Emilia: I mean, it's a lot to deal with, right? And so when you have these types of situations, and I'm sure this was not the first time you experienced something like that. So what, what helps you, like, how do you move forward when something like this happens?
[00:10:23] Carmen: Well, I think you have people around you that support you, that help. Like at that time, my parents, I think from my mom, I could do no wrong. Like everything I did was wonderful and it was great and it was going to be good and for her, who hadn't gone to college, my achievements were so significant. What happens too with these things is sometimes there's a sense of shame, which you should feel no shame. But yeah, but when you're accused of something You also don't want to share because then there's other people who might say, well, maybe she didn't write it. It is challenging, and I think I was just really lucky to have two very loving parents who were just always there whenever I felt a little defeatist. Because to them, it's like, no, you're gonna be great. You're gonna, you're gonna go on and do great things.
[00:11:12] Rori: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that, Carmen.
and it's, I mean, it's beautiful to hear how your parents and your family has been like such a consistent support for you through the challenges of academia.
[00:11:25] Carmen: I never share these stories, so, because it's one of those things you just kind of park it.
[00:11:29] Rori: Thank you for sharing now.
[00:11:30] Carmen: So I ended up going back home and working in the airport as an air, yeah, I was an air free forwarder and I found myself in an office environment and that was so sexist. Oh, my God. It was horrible. Typing, because they weren't using computers. Can you imagine? I'm a terrible typist. I'm thinking, what am I doing here with a biology degree? So after a year and a half, I just realized that being in the lab was a place of creativity. and so I applied to graduate programs.
Everyone interviewed me as the air freight forwarder, which was a little embarrassing. She's like, Oh, this is the girl from LA. She's an air freight forwarder.
[00:12:09] Rori: Oh my gosh.
[00:12:10] Carmen: I'm a biologist too.
[00:12:12] Rori: Yeah.
[00:12:13] Carmen: I applied to a bunch of places and my dad asked me why did I not apply to Berkeley? and I told him that my PI, when I was an undergrad, told me when I was telling her the list of different places to apply to that not even really smart students get into Berkeley.
So obviously I was not one of the really smart students. So I had, I thought I'm not going to apply to Berkeley. and my dad said, I'll pay for the application to Berkeley. and I thought, well, what the heck, if he's paying for it, might as well throw in the application to Berkeley. Berkeley was the first place that admitted me.
[00:12:50] Rori: Wow.
[00:12:51] Carmen: Yeah. So who's the first person I called? Poppy. That's what I call my dad. Poppy, you won't believe this, but I, I got an interview.
[00:13:01] Rori: I want to talk now kind of fast-forwarding to when you were at State. So I found an interview of you, Carmen, that I think was done through CEPL like 10 years ago. You spoke about feeling like you grew the most in your faculty position at SF State, in part because you found yourself in a diverse and supportive environment, which sounds very different from your experience at Irvine, for example.
So, uh, we would love to hear about how you were able to grow and change at SF State differently than in your previous academic environments.
[00:13:33] Carmen: Berkeley, you can imagine, was not, I mean, was, was Irvine times 10, right? I mean, and It's just in terms of the environment. and so, you know, just coming to San Francisco State, I knew Leti, Leti Márquez Magana was also a professor here and was ahead of me, but she was also a graduate student when I was at Berkeley and so, um, I felt like I was already coming into a department where I had some friendly faces, but honestly, the growth came from the students. Because the students, without them knowing, they were giving me confidence about who I was, what I could teach, what I could give them in terms of their college experience. I always felt like I had the best students in the world in my classes, in my labs, in my research group. I could share my passion for embryology or intro bio, and they just wanted to learn. They appreciated the time and effort. They appreciated the kindness. You just suddenly felt appreciated in a space that maybe in my other educational experiences, you don't feel a sense of appreciation.
You feel more a sense like a demand. Like, how do I meet the demands that others have of me? But really, it's for, it's, it's for them. It's for their reputation and stuff. It's not so much about my personal growth. and then here are the students just appreciating me and appreciating what I'm trying to teach them in the classroom with whatever different approaches, but inadvertently, that is actually helping me professionally grow.
[00:15:16] Rori: Mm. Yeah, that's really beautiful. and you know, rings very true, of course. and so, you were, you were here, the students were giving you the boost to kind of like, to, to feel confident in your contributions and everything. None of the students were being like, maybe it's not actually Carmen teaching this great class, they weren't doing any of that bullshit, right?
But as you were a faculty member, I think the common advice that Uh, new faculty are given is to kind of stay in their lane, to just stick to your basic research and keep your head down, but you did something very different from that, right? You were associate chair for biology, you got awarded the NSF, uh, advancing grant to understand how misogyny was playing out on our campus and to change it substantively and so you dramatically broadened the impact of your work from the developmental embryology that you are doing to this, these like much larger or many different ways to be impactful. I was in the department with you, and from my view in the department, you managed to be, like, a major player, and to be very well-liked, and to handle these relationships, like, over decades.
There were conflicts, there were disagreements. How did you manage these collegial relationships?
[00:16:32] Carmen: You know, everyone brings strengths to the table, and I always felt like the most important thing is really to work with those strengths. I think when we focus on the students, sometimes those interpersonal struggles can maybe stepped aside.
Because I think, you know, we're not all meant to be friends, you know, but we at least need to be respectful and collegial with each other and so figuring out how do we create that space where Everyone can be respectful of each other and try to support each other's work efforts, but really think about it in the context of the students and so, in these various different projects, a lot of times it was just trying to figure out where How do I work with these people to ensure that the students benefit from it? Because when there is disagreement among faculty, just like in families, a lot of times it's the students that are going to suffer from an environment that's not, uh, that's toxic.
I don't know. It's not an easy question to answer because I think I dealt with my colleagues with respect. I always saw that they brought Something to the table and there was always a way that we can make things work out.
[00:17:54] Rori: It sounds like, I mean, you know your value, which is the student. That's, that's a big part of what you're in it for and you know that that's a shared value with a lot of the faculty who you're working with. So when conflicts do come up, you're like, well, let's bring it back to our shared value, which is these students.
[00:18:10] Carmen: and I guess they could then put aside their interpersonal conflicts with other faculty.
I'm keeping that in mind for myself as I navigate my career, Carmen. So thank you for sharing that pearl.
[00:18:22] Emilia: I mean, I think that's something that it's difficult for faculty to do sometimes. So it seems that that has served you well. In your new position as Dean, what motivated you to do it?
[00:18:33] Carmen: Again, I was thinking about the students and the various programs that I had developed and the pleasure that I had working with computer science on the pink program, you know, and knowing that there are just so much talent across the college that if I was in a Dean role, could I, could I find mechanisms to elevate?
The work that we were doing in the biology department broadly across the whole college to benefit our students. Could we bring in more grant funding to help the students out? Could we really think about our best practices and, and make sure that we were kind of engaging in those in, in all disciplines in the sciences and engineering.
So, again, it came from that desire that I thought maybe I could bring some of my experiences into the dean's office and that it would have a positive impact on the students.
[00:19:27] Emilia: I think that being Dean probably comes with some challenges is that you have to make decisions. and some people may or may not like that.
How do you manage people having a whole range of reactions to your decisions?
[00:19:39] Carmen: I mean, I think it's always hard not to be able to say yes to all requests and yet saying yes to all requests is not responsible as a manager. and so I think it's explaining so that it doesn't feel capricious. So that it doesn't feel like I said yes to one person, I said no to the other.
I think it's important to understand what, what the limitations are of, you know, financially, but also to feel that I'm, I'm putting in place transparency in the decision making. So like one of the things that we did in science council with all the department chairs and senate directors was to put together.
A college wide set of best practices so that it could help the chairs in decision making, uh, but make it more transparent cause one of the things I realized is that each department had different ways of doing prior deans had had negotiated different, different agreements with different faculty. and that can be really challenging to navigate some of these negotiations I have inherited and so because I've inherited, I have to, to, to comply with them but my approach has not been to have these small separate agreements because it makes it very difficult to navigate those spaces. I think. Being able to convey the rationale behind the decision so that it's understood, you know, by all parties.
I think that's just very important. It never feels good to be, to have to say no. and in often case, many cases I, I do, but I've always done it respectfully and with hopefully clarity. That doesn't mean that the person leaving my office is happy. I have to accept that it's disappointing and acknowledge that it's disappointing.
Um, but hopefully provide other potential solutions that maybe weren't the ones that they had proposed, but maybe something that can be of help.
[00:21:47] Rori: Yeah.
[00:21:47] Carmen: So it's a hard job. They said that typically a dean lasts like three to five years because people do get disappointed when, when they feel that certain things can't, can't be done.
[00:22:02] Rori: As you're saying that, I'm thinking about parenting, which in some ways, some of the same kind of principles come up, at least for me. and and you, Carmen, are a parent. You're a mom of two daughters. and so this whole time you've been doing all of this research, running programs, teaching, institutional change, you're in leadership positions, and you've been with your kids.
What is your relationship like with your kids?
[00:22:28] Carmen: I adore my two daughters. They're so sweet. Like they, they saw me work very hard and sometimes I, you know, I had a stay-at-home mom, and so I just remember my mom always kept the house neat, she always cooked, she was just around, and I always worried that my house was a disaster, I wasn't cooking that much, I would bring the girls to work with me, which actually they liked, they liked coming to the campus, it made them feel like big girls.
But I think on the other side, I think they also feel very proud of of their mom and and that's seeing them navigate their own college experiences. Now, I keep hoping that they just have those kind faculty that will see something really special in them in the same way that I saw something really special in my students.
and I just realized that every student is somebody's child. and just like I want my children to have that special connection with a faculty member. I want our faculty to feel the same kind of love and responsibility for our students, because it's, they're all somebody's child that's wishing like a really great college experience.
[00:23:38] Rori: Your lived experience with your daughters impacts your values and how you show up at SF State too. and I'm curious how it's changed over time. Like when your kids were really little, how was it to be a faculty member? and a hardcore scientist then, and how has that changed?
[00:23:55] Carmen: I mean, when they were really little, it was a struggle and I think, you know, I'm probably speaking to two moms here. and I remember at times resenting work, because I felt like it was just always with me, you know? and I didn't have enough time for the kids, but at the same time I did, I remember I taught intro bio and my daughter was in second grade and I decided that all of my intro bio students were going to be peer mentors for the second graders.
I don't know how I came up with this idea. and so I. I had them all write letters to the second graders about how great college is, and I told the intro bio students that compared to a second grader, they knew a lot of biology, which maybe that would have been, that was kind of, and then the cutest thing is I took a picture of the second-grade class and I took a picture of, you know, that huge hall of like 200 students.
[00:24:49] Rori: Yeah.
[00:24:50] Carmen: and so the 200 students saw the little second-grade class. Had them all write messages to the second graders.
[00:24:56] Rori: Cool.
[00:24:56] Carmen: The second graders got to ask questions about the environment or something. and I had, as an extra credit, all 200 Bio230 students write responses. So each student, each second grader got like 10 responses.
[00:25:11] Rori: Wow. They're like overwhelmed and
[00:25:15] Carmen: like Overwhelmed! Yeah,
[00:25:16] Rori: but like that's so sweet. They must have felt so special. and the intro bio students are like sharing their knowledge, like they're the expert as a first or second year undergrad.
[00:25:26] Carmen: Yeah,
I don't know, one time I did a squid dissection in fifth grade, no, maybe it was third grade and then I had to ask my dad and my husband to show up because I was worried they would all jab themselves with the scissors and the pokies and they were dissecting squid. The whole place smelled like fish, and then the kids wanted to take the squid home. and so there's so many of them. I was like, Okay, you got to make sure your parents know that in your backpack is squid and plastic with all the ink and everything.
I mean, I think we, like, we bring our love of science into our children's classrooms when we can. and then we bring our children to campus with us when we can.
[00:26:06] Rori: Yeah.
[00:26:07] Carmen: Um, so I was trying to find ways to just Um, I think it's important for us be able to infuse the two. Oh, the other thing is with the R U. When we put the R U program together.
I did it with two colleagues that had and one of the goals of the REU program was we wanted our students to see that, that their three faculty members leading the program were moms too. and so we brought, they would have a three day excursion, you know, either on the coast or in the mountains. and we always brought our kids and our families with us, you know.
The girls, my daughters, still talk about it because every summer it was like, where are we going with the REU? It was like built into the summer planning. But I look back at those pictures and I'm like, Oh my God, we started doing that when they were like seven and eight years old and now they're 20 and 22.
[00:27:02] Rori: Yeah, that's amazing.
[00:27:03] Emilia: I'm gonna steal that idea about the letters, Carmen.
[00:27:06] Carmen: Oh good.
[00:27:08] Rori: This is why we're making a podcast. So a lot of people can steal your ideas. So Carmen, I happen to know that you have a very long commute, because I would see you on the BART platform, and I'd see you waiting for the bus and both you and I travel to the East Bay.
How can How have you managed your time and your energy and your work so that you have time for the relationships that are so important to you?
[00:27:31] Carmen: I mean, I think I'm lucky in that I don't get motion sickness. So when I'm on BART, you know, when I was a faculty member, I'd be working on my lectures. It was also like the time where a lot of times I didn't see anybody.
So it was also my quiet time. So, you know, it was my transition from campus where you're with people and working. Before I'm at home with my family, I need to say that I have a terrific partner Because I realized my partner didn't have the commute Uh, which made some things easier for him to pick up the kids and stuff, but he also likes to cook and he likes to shop.
and so I realized, you know, if I didn't have that kind of a partner, then I would also have had the stress of like, Oh my God, I got to go home. I have to shop. I have to cook. So, um, I like cooking, but the pressure wasn't on me to cook because he was helpful. and so I think so much of my ability to focus. , on my careers and to see it evolve was also because I had a good support system.
[00:28:38] Rori: There must be many things that you decide not to do. What are the things you decide not to do and how do you make those decisions?
[00:28:46] Carmen: Well, one of the things I decided not to do, which was really hard, is I did close my research lab.
[00:28:51] Rori: Oh, did you?
[00:28:52] Carmen: This past year. I just, I, it was too hard. I thought, you know, I need to write grants, I need to write papers.
I mean, deans in R01 institutions, they have, you know, technicians, they have PhD students, they have this infrastructure that I didn't have here. and I felt like coming out of the pandemic and not being able, you know, during the pandemic too, like not being able to provide the quality mentorship that I always used to provide in the lab.
I didn't feel like I was doing the best job for my students and nor for my science, and so that piece is hard.
[00:29:32] Rori: That is sad, because you've done so much good research. and it also seems like that decision was, again, based on this value of, like, making the best opportunities for the students. and you were like, I can't do it in that capacity, so I'm going to put my attention elsewhere.
[00:29:46] Carmen: and I felt like, you know, yes, I could be writing grants for my lab, But instead, I really need to think about funds that support the whole college. Like where do I put my effort in? I need to work with the foundations. I need to work with the donors. and so in thinking about my efforts to raise funds, I also felt like my obligation is to the college and not to my research.
[00:30:08] Emilia: Right. So I want you to think back to yourself at different career stages. and I want to know. What advice you would have given your former self? So as an undergrad, as a PhD and postdoc, as an early career faculty member, As a mid-career faculty member, as a new dean.
[00:30:31] Carmen: Wow. I mean, I think, I think I would say follow your, where your heart is, where your passion is.
I mean, and not to doubt oneself. Like I'm looking back and I think I had so many doubts and insecurities that kind of plagued my sense of confidence along the way. but maybe it made me more humble and more, you know, have more humility. I don't, I don't know. Like, it's hard to always, you don't want to second guess who you are because all of those experiences make you who you are today.
Um, but I guess, you know, like a reassurance, like it's going to be okay because you are following the things that feed your soul. and in so doing, I mean, maybe I've just been really lucky because I look back and I think, oh my gosh, I never would have thought I would be in this role, in this position. but I also feel like all along I've been following the things that have given me pleasure and even with a job that's really hard as dean, It still gives me pleasure to welcome the new students, welcome the new faculty. I derive so much pleasure when I see the faculty get a new grant and their research, you know, it gets to a next level and, um, that their students adore them, you know, or, um, I still strongly believe that, you know, our students deserve this amazing experience and when they go off to successful careers, I'm like, Wow, not only do we transform their lives, but many times the lives of their families who didn't have the opportunity to go to college, didn't have access to economic stability and, you know, so to me, all of that is so rewarding.
So. I don't know. I think, you know, following your, your passion and your mission, you're going to get there and just feel a little bit more confident in yourself along the way.
[00:32:35] Emilia: Oh, Thank you.
[00:32:36] Rori: Thank you for that gift, Carmen. Thank you so much for joining us.
[00:32:40] Carmen: Thank you so much for the opportunity.
[00:32:44] Rori: Thank you for listening to this episode. If you got something useful from it, please share that insight and the episode with the people in your life. You can also support this program by writing a kind review if your listening platform allows it. This episode was produced and edited by Maribel Quezada Smith, sound engineering by Keagan Stronberg.
Special thanks to Dr. Carmen Domingo. The hosts of ScienceWise are Emilia Huerta Sanchez and me, Rori Rohlfs.
Today, we are thrilled to introduce our guest, Dr. Carmen Domingo. The first woman dean of the College of Science and Engineering at San Francisco State University. I got to know Carmen when I first got my faculty job at SF State. For decades, Dr. Domingo has been working so hard to create welcoming and inclusive scientific environments.
Dr. Domingo grew up in Hawthorne and Inglewood, Los Angeles. Studied science in California public schools from kindergarten through her PhD in molecular and cell biology at the University of California, Berkeley. Her laboratory research focused on the cellular and molecular pathways that underlie how muscle cells develop in embryos.
Today, we're going to hear about how, even when faced with an exclusive culture in science, Dr. Domingo developed, persisted, and thrived as a scientist.
Carmen, I first got to know you when I started my faculty position at SF State. At that time, you were associate chair in biology, and the first time I had a real interaction with you was at my very first faculty meeting, my first department meeting in biology. Which I showed up to with a seven-month-old baby and a course proposal to discuss and you didn't miss a beat. You just immediately were like, Oh, let me hold your baby while you get settled here. and you like completely normalized having a child with you in department meetings while you're doing something like proposing new courses. and then when we started discussing the course, you had, like, useful, you know, actually, like, useful critical feedback and you clarified the process so that we could get the course through, uh, more efficiently.
So I feel like that was my first introduction to you. You bring the substantive critical feedback, you bring the, like, how can we make this happen, and you're, like, there for somebody's whole self and their baby at the same time.
[00:02:20] Carmen: for that. I appreciate the memory.
[00:02:22] Rori: Well, yeah. I mean, it's such a good one. and.
You know, it's just part of saying, like, I'm so thrilled to have you on this show, so thank you for joining us. Uh, so, you grew up in Los Angeles, right?
[00:02:32] Carmen: I was born and raised in Englewood, California.
[00:02:35] Rori: and, I mean, what was it like in Englewood back then when you were growing up?
[00:02:40] Carmen: At the time, my dad was a teacher, a math teacher, uh, at a private, small university.
and at night, he was a graduate student, actually, at UCLA, getting his
Ph.D. In engineering my mom was a stay-at-home mom, and so my dad was raising three kids on a pretty minimal salary. It took him nine years to get his Ph. D., and I always think, you know, we all know how hard it is to get a Ph. D., but I, I can't imagine, you know, having an outside job raising a family of three.
[00:03:20] Rori: Oh my gosh.
[00:03:22] Carmen: When I said I wanted to get, to pursue a PhD, he was mixed about it, because in his perspective it was a very challenging pursuit, and not one that really, he, he didn't feel that financially.
[00:03:36] Rori: That's so interesting that then he had mixed feelings because his own experience was difficult. and financially, but, but so you grew up with this idea of academia, but this idea of academia in like kind of strenuous circumstances.
[00:03:48] Carmen: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, that idea of doing a PhD, it was, it wasn't something that I thought of until I was in, you know, I guess in undergrad, I think because my father was educated, my mother was not.
She finished high school and was not educated, and her story is very different from my father's because she was born and raised in Venezuela, a very sort of traditional environment where women were not encouraged to go and advance themselves, and so then she met my father when he was a student.
[00:04:23] Rori: So at what point did you get interested in science for yourself?
[00:04:27] Carmen: So I think, you know, it was part of our environment. My dad's father is a doctor in Spain, in Barcelona. and we would go and visit, and he would see patients in his home. and so, he would care for the patients in his two or three blocks around his neighborhood. and so, we thought that was cool. We would open the door and welcome his patients in and so I think, you know, being around kind of medicine and science, I think it was. It was, it was part of my upbringing.
[00:05:04] Rori: I mean, I think that's really cool.
[00:05:06] Emilia: One thing that it's really cool about you that I like is that you're a product of the public school system. You did your undergrad, your grad school, and even your postdoc, and now you work at a public institution as well. Could you describe what your experience was like entering and developing in academia?
[00:05:29] Carmen: When I first went to UC Irvine, it was a challenge, honestly. I don't think, I, I, I didn't know what to expect. I thought Orange County would be just like a continuation of LA. Irvine at that time was not very diverse. It was very politically conservative too.
I don't think I had expected that. I was a pre med. and so, Irvine at that time, you know, well it has a medical school, and so it had a, you know, a lot of students went there as pre-meds in the hopes that they could enter the medical school there. and that environment was so aggressive. It was not a very welcoming and nurturing place and I was kind of stubborn because, you know, a lot of people who changed their majors and were not a biology major. I had the opportunity in my it was the beginning of my junior year, end of my sophomore year, where I had heard from a friend about doing research. and so, you know, that's why, you know, here at State, I realized how important it is to provide people a home in a research lab, because that's what it was like for me and I got introduced first to some, a chemistry research group, and then I switched over to a developmental biology. Research group, which, you know, really was the basis of my. My love of embryology and at the time I've had a bunch of different jobs when I first started and my freshman year I worked in the dorm cafeteria serving food then I you know, I worked at a pizza place and when I found the embryology lab the PI there asked me what you know How I was supporting myself and and then she said well, what do you think if I could pay you?
10 20 hours a week in my lab. I was like, oh my gosh like That just made all the difference in the world. So after I did that and I graduated, I still wasn't sure that I wanted to continue with my education. I was exhausted you know, it was difficult experience, even though I did like the work in the lab, I didn't quite see myself continuing.
[00:07:41] Emilia: Could you say more about why you didn't see yourself continuing? You said you were burnt out a little bit, but was that all there was?
[00:07:49] Carmen: Well, I mean, there were all these things. I mean, I'll tell you one thing that was quite painful, which in my senior year, they had honors for students who did research, and you had to you had to do a poster presentation.
You had to write a senior thesis. and so when I wrote my senior thesis, um, it went to, I don't know, a faculty member for review. and what I got sent back was a critique and it was erased because what it said was, this was the best thesis I read too bad the student didn't write it.
[00:08:31] Rori: What?
[00:08:32] Carmen: Yeah. and so I went to my PI at the time, and she was adjunct faculty, and I showed her. But she didn't really do anything, so I wrote a letter to the faculty. I don't know if it was the dean or the chair or the faculty member. and I said that I was very hurt, and I copied the thing, and I said, I was very hurt by this implication. I worked incredibly hard on this. If they had any questions, why not speak with me or speak with my mentor before writing such a statement?
It was erased, but you could see it. So maybe they thought because it was kind of erased, I wouldn't read it, but I could read it. They never responded to the letter that I wrote. I was given honors, but it negated it negated something that I had worked so hard to do. and the only thing I could think is Why would they have second-guessed my ability to write this?
[00:09:34] Carmen: and I thought, well, because my name is Carmen Domingo. Maybe she doesn't write good English. I mean, I don't know. But they didn't even take the time to speak with me.
[00:09:43] Rori: That's so insulting. That's like, ugh.
[00:09:46] Carmen: So, you know, there were, you know, there's always things like that that I think, um, women, women of color, experienced Latinos and so you just kind of put it aside and you already have your own sense of like, do I belong or not? and that just compounds a sense of, uh, maybe you're just not good enough, you know? So I just figured I needed a break.
[00:10:08] Emilia: I mean, it's a lot to deal with, right? And so when you have these types of situations, and I'm sure this was not the first time you experienced something like that. So what, what helps you, like, how do you move forward when something like this happens?
[00:10:23] Carmen: Well, I think you have people around you that support you, that help. Like at that time, my parents, I think from my mom, I could do no wrong. Like everything I did was wonderful and it was great and it was going to be good and for her, who hadn't gone to college, my achievements were so significant. What happens too with these things is sometimes there's a sense of shame, which you should feel no shame. But yeah, but when you're accused of something You also don't want to share because then there's other people who might say, well, maybe she didn't write it. It is challenging, and I think I was just really lucky to have two very loving parents who were just always there whenever I felt a little defeatist. Because to them, it's like, no, you're gonna be great. You're gonna, you're gonna go on and do great things.
[00:11:12] Rori: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that, Carmen.
and it's, I mean, it's beautiful to hear how your parents and your family has been like such a consistent support for you through the challenges of academia.
[00:11:25] Carmen: I never share these stories, so, because it's one of those things you just kind of park it.
[00:11:29] Rori: Thank you for sharing now.
[00:11:30] Carmen: So I ended up going back home and working in the airport as an air, yeah, I was an air free forwarder and I found myself in an office environment and that was so sexist. Oh, my God. It was horrible. Typing, because they weren't using computers. Can you imagine? I'm a terrible typist. I'm thinking, what am I doing here with a biology degree? So after a year and a half, I just realized that being in the lab was a place of creativity. and so I applied to graduate programs.
Everyone interviewed me as the air freight forwarder, which was a little embarrassing. She's like, Oh, this is the girl from LA. She's an air freight forwarder.
[00:12:09] Rori: Oh my gosh.
[00:12:10] Carmen: I'm a biologist too.
[00:12:12] Rori: Yeah.
[00:12:13] Carmen: I applied to a bunch of places and my dad asked me why did I not apply to Berkeley? and I told him that my PI, when I was an undergrad, told me when I was telling her the list of different places to apply to that not even really smart students get into Berkeley.
So obviously I was not one of the really smart students. So I had, I thought I'm not going to apply to Berkeley. and my dad said, I'll pay for the application to Berkeley. and I thought, well, what the heck, if he's paying for it, might as well throw in the application to Berkeley. Berkeley was the first place that admitted me.
[00:12:50] Rori: Wow.
[00:12:51] Carmen: Yeah. So who's the first person I called? Poppy. That's what I call my dad. Poppy, you won't believe this, but I, I got an interview.
[00:13:01] Rori: I want to talk now kind of fast-forwarding to when you were at State. So I found an interview of you, Carmen, that I think was done through CEPL like 10 years ago. You spoke about feeling like you grew the most in your faculty position at SF State, in part because you found yourself in a diverse and supportive environment, which sounds very different from your experience at Irvine, for example.
So, uh, we would love to hear about how you were able to grow and change at SF State differently than in your previous academic environments.
[00:13:33] Carmen: Berkeley, you can imagine, was not, I mean, was, was Irvine times 10, right? I mean, and It's just in terms of the environment. and so, you know, just coming to San Francisco State, I knew Leti, Leti Márquez Magana was also a professor here and was ahead of me, but she was also a graduate student when I was at Berkeley and so, um, I felt like I was already coming into a department where I had some friendly faces, but honestly, the growth came from the students. Because the students, without them knowing, they were giving me confidence about who I was, what I could teach, what I could give them in terms of their college experience. I always felt like I had the best students in the world in my classes, in my labs, in my research group. I could share my passion for embryology or intro bio, and they just wanted to learn. They appreciated the time and effort. They appreciated the kindness. You just suddenly felt appreciated in a space that maybe in my other educational experiences, you don't feel a sense of appreciation.
You feel more a sense like a demand. Like, how do I meet the demands that others have of me? But really, it's for, it's, it's for them. It's for their reputation and stuff. It's not so much about my personal growth. and then here are the students just appreciating me and appreciating what I'm trying to teach them in the classroom with whatever different approaches, but inadvertently, that is actually helping me professionally grow.
[00:15:16] Rori: Mm. Yeah, that's really beautiful. and you know, rings very true, of course. and so, you were, you were here, the students were giving you the boost to kind of like, to, to feel confident in your contributions and everything. None of the students were being like, maybe it's not actually Carmen teaching this great class, they weren't doing any of that bullshit, right?
But as you were a faculty member, I think the common advice that Uh, new faculty are given is to kind of stay in their lane, to just stick to your basic research and keep your head down, but you did something very different from that, right? You were associate chair for biology, you got awarded the NSF, uh, advancing grant to understand how misogyny was playing out on our campus and to change it substantively and so you dramatically broadened the impact of your work from the developmental embryology that you are doing to this, these like much larger or many different ways to be impactful. I was in the department with you, and from my view in the department, you managed to be, like, a major player, and to be very well-liked, and to handle these relationships, like, over decades.
There were conflicts, there were disagreements. How did you manage these collegial relationships?
[00:16:32] Carmen: You know, everyone brings strengths to the table, and I always felt like the most important thing is really to work with those strengths. I think when we focus on the students, sometimes those interpersonal struggles can maybe stepped aside.
Because I think, you know, we're not all meant to be friends, you know, but we at least need to be respectful and collegial with each other and so figuring out how do we create that space where Everyone can be respectful of each other and try to support each other's work efforts, but really think about it in the context of the students and so, in these various different projects, a lot of times it was just trying to figure out where How do I work with these people to ensure that the students benefit from it? Because when there is disagreement among faculty, just like in families, a lot of times it's the students that are going to suffer from an environment that's not, uh, that's toxic.
I don't know. It's not an easy question to answer because I think I dealt with my colleagues with respect. I always saw that they brought Something to the table and there was always a way that we can make things work out.
[00:17:54] Rori: It sounds like, I mean, you know your value, which is the student. That's, that's a big part of what you're in it for and you know that that's a shared value with a lot of the faculty who you're working with. So when conflicts do come up, you're like, well, let's bring it back to our shared value, which is these students.
[00:18:10] Carmen: and I guess they could then put aside their interpersonal conflicts with other faculty.
I'm keeping that in mind for myself as I navigate my career, Carmen. So thank you for sharing that pearl.
[00:18:22] Emilia: I mean, I think that's something that it's difficult for faculty to do sometimes. So it seems that that has served you well. In your new position as Dean, what motivated you to do it?
[00:18:33] Carmen: Again, I was thinking about the students and the various programs that I had developed and the pleasure that I had working with computer science on the pink program, you know, and knowing that there are just so much talent across the college that if I was in a Dean role, could I, could I find mechanisms to elevate?
The work that we were doing in the biology department broadly across the whole college to benefit our students. Could we bring in more grant funding to help the students out? Could we really think about our best practices and, and make sure that we were kind of engaging in those in, in all disciplines in the sciences and engineering.
So, again, it came from that desire that I thought maybe I could bring some of my experiences into the dean's office and that it would have a positive impact on the students.
[00:19:27] Emilia: I think that being Dean probably comes with some challenges is that you have to make decisions. and some people may or may not like that.
How do you manage people having a whole range of reactions to your decisions?
[00:19:39] Carmen: I mean, I think it's always hard not to be able to say yes to all requests and yet saying yes to all requests is not responsible as a manager. and so I think it's explaining so that it doesn't feel capricious. So that it doesn't feel like I said yes to one person, I said no to the other.
I think it's important to understand what, what the limitations are of, you know, financially, but also to feel that I'm, I'm putting in place transparency in the decision making. So like one of the things that we did in science council with all the department chairs and senate directors was to put together.
A college wide set of best practices so that it could help the chairs in decision making, uh, but make it more transparent cause one of the things I realized is that each department had different ways of doing prior deans had had negotiated different, different agreements with different faculty. and that can be really challenging to navigate some of these negotiations I have inherited and so because I've inherited, I have to, to, to comply with them but my approach has not been to have these small separate agreements because it makes it very difficult to navigate those spaces. I think. Being able to convey the rationale behind the decision so that it's understood, you know, by all parties.
I think that's just very important. It never feels good to be, to have to say no. and in often case, many cases I, I do, but I've always done it respectfully and with hopefully clarity. That doesn't mean that the person leaving my office is happy. I have to accept that it's disappointing and acknowledge that it's disappointing.
Um, but hopefully provide other potential solutions that maybe weren't the ones that they had proposed, but maybe something that can be of help.
[00:21:47] Rori: Yeah.
[00:21:47] Carmen: So it's a hard job. They said that typically a dean lasts like three to five years because people do get disappointed when, when they feel that certain things can't, can't be done.
[00:22:02] Rori: As you're saying that, I'm thinking about parenting, which in some ways, some of the same kind of principles come up, at least for me. and and you, Carmen, are a parent. You're a mom of two daughters. and so this whole time you've been doing all of this research, running programs, teaching, institutional change, you're in leadership positions, and you've been with your kids.
What is your relationship like with your kids?
[00:22:28] Carmen: I adore my two daughters. They're so sweet. Like they, they saw me work very hard and sometimes I, you know, I had a stay-at-home mom, and so I just remember my mom always kept the house neat, she always cooked, she was just around, and I always worried that my house was a disaster, I wasn't cooking that much, I would bring the girls to work with me, which actually they liked, they liked coming to the campus, it made them feel like big girls.
But I think on the other side, I think they also feel very proud of of their mom and and that's seeing them navigate their own college experiences. Now, I keep hoping that they just have those kind faculty that will see something really special in them in the same way that I saw something really special in my students.
and I just realized that every student is somebody's child. and just like I want my children to have that special connection with a faculty member. I want our faculty to feel the same kind of love and responsibility for our students, because it's, they're all somebody's child that's wishing like a really great college experience.
[00:23:38] Rori: Your lived experience with your daughters impacts your values and how you show up at SF State too. and I'm curious how it's changed over time. Like when your kids were really little, how was it to be a faculty member? and a hardcore scientist then, and how has that changed?
[00:23:55] Carmen: I mean, when they were really little, it was a struggle and I think, you know, I'm probably speaking to two moms here. and I remember at times resenting work, because I felt like it was just always with me, you know? and I didn't have enough time for the kids, but at the same time I did, I remember I taught intro bio and my daughter was in second grade and I decided that all of my intro bio students were going to be peer mentors for the second graders.
I don't know how I came up with this idea. and so I. I had them all write letters to the second graders about how great college is, and I told the intro bio students that compared to a second grader, they knew a lot of biology, which maybe that would have been, that was kind of, and then the cutest thing is I took a picture of the second-grade class and I took a picture of, you know, that huge hall of like 200 students.
[00:24:49] Rori: Yeah.
[00:24:50] Carmen: and so the 200 students saw the little second-grade class. Had them all write messages to the second graders.
[00:24:56] Rori: Cool.
[00:24:56] Carmen: The second graders got to ask questions about the environment or something. and I had, as an extra credit, all 200 Bio230 students write responses. So each student, each second grader got like 10 responses.
[00:25:11] Rori: Wow. They're like overwhelmed and
[00:25:15] Carmen: like Overwhelmed! Yeah,
[00:25:16] Rori: but like that's so sweet. They must have felt so special. and the intro bio students are like sharing their knowledge, like they're the expert as a first or second year undergrad.
[00:25:26] Carmen: Yeah,
I don't know, one time I did a squid dissection in fifth grade, no, maybe it was third grade and then I had to ask my dad and my husband to show up because I was worried they would all jab themselves with the scissors and the pokies and they were dissecting squid. The whole place smelled like fish, and then the kids wanted to take the squid home. and so there's so many of them. I was like, Okay, you got to make sure your parents know that in your backpack is squid and plastic with all the ink and everything.
I mean, I think we, like, we bring our love of science into our children's classrooms when we can. and then we bring our children to campus with us when we can.
[00:26:06] Rori: Yeah.
[00:26:07] Carmen: Um, so I was trying to find ways to just Um, I think it's important for us be able to infuse the two. Oh, the other thing is with the R U. When we put the R U program together.
I did it with two colleagues that had and one of the goals of the REU program was we wanted our students to see that, that their three faculty members leading the program were moms too. and so we brought, they would have a three day excursion, you know, either on the coast or in the mountains. and we always brought our kids and our families with us, you know.
The girls, my daughters, still talk about it because every summer it was like, where are we going with the REU? It was like built into the summer planning. But I look back at those pictures and I'm like, Oh my God, we started doing that when they were like seven and eight years old and now they're 20 and 22.
[00:27:02] Rori: Yeah, that's amazing.
[00:27:03] Emilia: I'm gonna steal that idea about the letters, Carmen.
[00:27:06] Carmen: Oh good.
[00:27:08] Rori: This is why we're making a podcast. So a lot of people can steal your ideas. So Carmen, I happen to know that you have a very long commute, because I would see you on the BART platform, and I'd see you waiting for the bus and both you and I travel to the East Bay.
How can How have you managed your time and your energy and your work so that you have time for the relationships that are so important to you?
[00:27:31] Carmen: I mean, I think I'm lucky in that I don't get motion sickness. So when I'm on BART, you know, when I was a faculty member, I'd be working on my lectures. It was also like the time where a lot of times I didn't see anybody.
So it was also my quiet time. So, you know, it was my transition from campus where you're with people and working. Before I'm at home with my family, I need to say that I have a terrific partner Because I realized my partner didn't have the commute Uh, which made some things easier for him to pick up the kids and stuff, but he also likes to cook and he likes to shop.
and so I realized, you know, if I didn't have that kind of a partner, then I would also have had the stress of like, Oh my God, I got to go home. I have to shop. I have to cook. So, um, I like cooking, but the pressure wasn't on me to cook because he was helpful. and so I think so much of my ability to focus. , on my careers and to see it evolve was also because I had a good support system.
[00:28:38] Rori: There must be many things that you decide not to do. What are the things you decide not to do and how do you make those decisions?
[00:28:46] Carmen: Well, one of the things I decided not to do, which was really hard, is I did close my research lab.
[00:28:51] Rori: Oh, did you?
[00:28:52] Carmen: This past year. I just, I, it was too hard. I thought, you know, I need to write grants, I need to write papers.
I mean, deans in R01 institutions, they have, you know, technicians, they have PhD students, they have this infrastructure that I didn't have here. and I felt like coming out of the pandemic and not being able, you know, during the pandemic too, like not being able to provide the quality mentorship that I always used to provide in the lab.
I didn't feel like I was doing the best job for my students and nor for my science, and so that piece is hard.
[00:29:32] Rori: That is sad, because you've done so much good research. and it also seems like that decision was, again, based on this value of, like, making the best opportunities for the students. and you were like, I can't do it in that capacity, so I'm going to put my attention elsewhere.
[00:29:46] Carmen: and I felt like, you know, yes, I could be writing grants for my lab, But instead, I really need to think about funds that support the whole college. Like where do I put my effort in? I need to work with the foundations. I need to work with the donors. and so in thinking about my efforts to raise funds, I also felt like my obligation is to the college and not to my research.
[00:30:08] Emilia: Right. So I want you to think back to yourself at different career stages. and I want to know. What advice you would have given your former self? So as an undergrad, as a PhD and postdoc, as an early career faculty member, As a mid-career faculty member, as a new dean.
[00:30:31] Carmen: Wow. I mean, I think, I think I would say follow your, where your heart is, where your passion is.
I mean, and not to doubt oneself. Like I'm looking back and I think I had so many doubts and insecurities that kind of plagued my sense of confidence along the way. but maybe it made me more humble and more, you know, have more humility. I don't, I don't know. Like, it's hard to always, you don't want to second guess who you are because all of those experiences make you who you are today.
Um, but I guess, you know, like a reassurance, like it's going to be okay because you are following the things that feed your soul. and in so doing, I mean, maybe I've just been really lucky because I look back and I think, oh my gosh, I never would have thought I would be in this role, in this position. but I also feel like all along I've been following the things that have given me pleasure and even with a job that's really hard as dean, It still gives me pleasure to welcome the new students, welcome the new faculty. I derive so much pleasure when I see the faculty get a new grant and their research, you know, it gets to a next level and, um, that their students adore them, you know, or, um, I still strongly believe that, you know, our students deserve this amazing experience and when they go off to successful careers, I'm like, Wow, not only do we transform their lives, but many times the lives of their families who didn't have the opportunity to go to college, didn't have access to economic stability and, you know, so to me, all of that is so rewarding.
So. I don't know. I think, you know, following your, your passion and your mission, you're going to get there and just feel a little bit more confident in yourself along the way.
[00:32:35] Emilia: Oh, Thank you.
[00:32:36] Rori: Thank you for that gift, Carmen. Thank you so much for joining us.
[00:32:40] Carmen: Thank you so much for the opportunity.
[00:32:44] Rori: Thank you for listening to this episode. If you got something useful from it, please share that insight and the episode with the people in your life. You can also support this program by writing a kind review if your listening platform allows it. This episode was produced and edited by Maribel Quezada Smith, sound engineering by Keagan Stronberg.
Special thanks to Dr. Carmen Domingo. The hosts of ScienceWise are Emilia Huerta Sanchez and me, Rori Rohlfs.