Season 2 |
Season Two Wrap-Up: Your Questions, Bold Answers
[00:00:00] RORI: Welcome to the final episode of Season Two of Science Wise.
[00:00:04] EMILIA: Oh my God, I can't believe this is the end of season two. So we thought that it would be a great idea to use the experts that we interviewed to answer some of your questions.
[00:00:14] RORI: So this is Science Wise, where we talk to scientists with decades of experience to learn from their wisdom.
I'm Rori Rohlfs, associate Professor of Data Science at the University of Oregon.
[00:00:23] EMILIA: And I'm Emilia Huerta-Sanchez, associate professor at Brown University in ecology, evolution, and organismal biology.
[00:00:35] RORI: Emilia, we interviewed so many rad scientists this season.
[00:00:39] EMILIA: Yeah.
[00:00:40] RORI: Oh my gosh.
Starting with Dr. Maria Oribe, an incredible scientist who studies phylogenetics of different species, and who created amazing programs at the University of Kansas for faculty and for students.
[00:00:51] EMILIA: Dr. Lisa White, who has created also so many cool programs for undergrads to experience the natural beauty of this earth
[00:00:58] RORI: And who studies fossils.
And then Dr. Joann Trejo, who does incredible molecular biology work. She's like one of the most funded people at her university, plus she runs all of these programs to improve a sense of belonging in science.
[00:01:11] EMILIA: And Dr. Mary Jo Ondrechen, who is a chemist
[00:01:16] RORI: who used machine learning for computational chemistry way before it was cool.
[00:01:20] EMILIA: Even though she didn't ask for it, she couldn't be a bio major, but she eventually ended up doing so many contributions to biology.
[00:01:27] RORI: Dr. Barbara Wakimoto, a very cool geneticist who liked to study very difficult problems and who made major changes at her university, the University of Washington,
[00:01:35] EMILIA: and Dr. Pilar Osorio, who is, oh my God, a lawyer, a scientist.
[00:01:40] RORI: So ethicist, ethicist,
[00:01:41] EMILIA: bioethicist. I mean, she's amazing.
[00:01:44] RORI: Making it all happen. Dr. Dawn Wright, who, I mean, I still can't get over. I'm like, oh my God. She like descended to the Challenger Deep. It's amazing. Not only is she like an incredible explorer and marine geologist, but she does so much to open the doors of science more widely
[00:02:00] EMILIA: and to get people really inspired about mapping the sea floor.
Dr. Anne Stone, a biological anthropologist who's done so many contributions humans in primates about infectious diseases.
[00:02:14] RORI: Yeah, it's a very impressive and prestigious bunch. We've got like multiple National Academy members.
[00:02:19] EMILIA: Oh yeah.
[00:02:19] RORI: Multiple Broad prize winners. It's like a very impressive group of people, and we're so lucky that they answered some listener questions.
So we're going to go through those now for our wrap-up. So the first question was submitted by a statistics instructor, and the question is, what are some of your biggest failures in quotes, missteps in quotes, or setbacks? Quote, we're gonna hear from Dr. Joann Trejo about her greatest quote-unquote failures.
[00:02:44] JOANN T: I think this is more related to being a little bit naive in, in science. So when I was at, um, a postdoc, I was offered the opportunity to work on, when I first joined the lab to work on some of the. The knockouts, the mouse knockouts of these receptors and different receptors and so on and so forth, and I decided not to do that because I didn't believe it would work, which was me.
I never talked to anybody about that. I never really got advice on whether this would be the best project to move forward or not. And yeah, I was skeptical in retrospect. I, I wish I had been involved in those studies because they were like, the first evidence that these receptors are the receptors for thrombin, which is the major clotting factor that we had, was a huge finding.
And I, I think the lesson learned there is you don't wanna close any doors. You always wanna keep all your options open. You wanna have plan A, plan B, plan C, and plan T is what I tell them. And to be proactive. If someone is offering you a project or has an idea to really think about it and not to make a decision with limited information is to try to get as much information as you can and try to talk to people who are really experts in this area to help give advice.
When I was growing up as a scientist, it was not as transparent, I guess is one word I would say, or it wasn't as easy to communicate. I mean, people on social media get advice all the time. People just use it as an as a platform to get technical advice, career advice, and people connect with each other and collaborate.
There are really a, a lot of benefits for having a platform like that now. So I think it is important to think deeply and try to get more information before making a decision, because I basically closed the door and I shouldn't have, I should have left it open, you know?
[00:04:44] RORI: I see. Dr. Trejo is so incredibly accomplished, and she sees that she could have made this additional contribution to science, and she's disappointed that she didn't get to do that, which makes so much sense.
I see what she's saying, that she wished that she had more information before she decided to close the door on that opportunity, and I appreciate that. It makes sense to. Be well prepared before we make these decisions. At the same time, we are all going to miss some opportunities and we are all going to misjudge some opportunities.
So it feels like in retrospect, it's something that you can wish you did differently, and it's something that, you know, we can also be at peace with the fact that we, we can't take full advantage of everything 'cause we don't have all the information ahead of time.
[00:05:22] EMILIA: I think it's really difficult to have foresight and there's always lots of choices, and sometimes we're gonna, we're going to miss out, and sometimes we're not.
[00:05:31] RORI: So we have another question here. This is from Janice, a PhD student in quantitative and population genetics, and she will tell us in her own words.
[00:05:39] JANICE: Hi, Rori and Emilia. Thank you for making this podcast. As an Asian female PhD student who wants to pursue an academic career. I have some uncertainties about my future.
I have heard judgmental comments on minoritized scientists, such as you can't trust a PI who got their chance by being a minority, and it was a surprise that a female pre-PhD student made this to a female minority PI. I have also heard comments made toward a general Asian female scientist, especially to PIs, that we are picky and harsh, which is what is spread out in the Asian community.
It was disappointing to me because in these cases, people can trust those with similar backgrounds as them, like being women, Asians, etc., to be capable as scientists and be nice to others. And as a result, more students are likely to work with those with privileges because that's my insurer better advisory and networking and know that we've struggled a lot to survive and thrive in science, but it seems that living an impression to the general public that we are having a life that does not belong to us and we can't live well.
Do you have any suggestions for these situations, and how do you manage to let people trust your ability in swimming and science?
[00:06:48] RORI: For this one, we're going to hear answers from two scientists from Dr. Barbara Wakimoto and Dr. Lisa White. First, here's Barbara.
[00:06:55] BARBARA W: Wow. I have to say I really love this question.
I can identify with it and thank you, 'cause this idea about an Asian female in science and the idea that there are so many stereotypes, right? And also, uh, sometimes it happens to me, every time I have to check one of those little boxes, it says Hispanic, non-Hispanic, Asian, Caucasian, or whatever, and they lump us into these boxes. And I understand counting reasons they do that, but als,o people don't realize how diverse Asians are. Oh yeah. We're trying to fix that, but wow. It could be the Asian immigrants from so many different countries where the Asian Americans had totally different cultural upbringings and connections, their family, heritage, and traditions. Their mannerisms. What's respected, what's demanded in our families is just very different. I've faced it, it's interesting 'cause I was raised in Phoenix with no Asians and then I came to the University of Washington, where there are lots of Asian undergraduate women that said to me, you're the first Asian professor we've had.
[00:07:15] RORI: Wow.
[00:07:16] BARBARA W: In my field. And I was really surprised, but I thought, okay, what can I do to help them? And part of it is because you realize, I guess, it's just human nature to stereotype people. And they often people don't look at the individuals and we've got to really work hard no matter what we look like or what we're doing or what we end up promoting, to break down those stereotypes.
The only thing I can say is encouragement. In that, when I was faced with this, my, one of my mentors in this department, she was retired at the time, when I would complain about how women were treated and not, we weren't. Given our credit for ideas, she would just shake her head and I still hear her voice on my shoulder, she would say, Barbara, it's a good thing you're an educator because we've got a lot of educating to do and for some reason, that calmed me down. And I thought, it's not my problem, but it is my responsibility to try to educate you.
[00:08:50] RORI: That's a gift you gave her.
[00:08:50] BARBARA W: You have to do it in a manner that's is very respectful, even as hard as it is, and you hope you make some sort of inwards too. And I remember a faculty meeting where I, the behavior of some men were horrible, and I caught them individually walking to, to the building and I, and I told them individually, not in front of a crowd. I said, No, you can't treat women like that. I know there's not any magic solutions you like to snap your fingers in, adjust things, but I think you have to really think of it as a very long-term mission that we have, and try not to take it personally, and some people you are never going to change.
[00:09:27] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:28] BARBARA W: You can just change your reaction to them.
[00:09:30] RORI: Thank you very much, Barbara. And here is Lisa White's take,
[00:09:34] LISA W: I will speak to one that it made me angry when I first read it, and that's fine. That's a good thing because we need to be reminded that there.
There are so many situations just filled with the worst of stereotypes about the achievement of folks of color in STEM, women in STEM, that, you know, are part of the reasons I know too, that motivate us and the work we do, and especially in participating in this podcast. So this is me, you know, 34 years into the profession, answering this.
Where I've accomplished so much now that I hardly even pay attention to what people might be thinking or I don't even assume that they are thinking that, you know, I've heard what people think for years in my career and it used to bother me, but I never felt like I didn't belong. You know, there were days when frustrated, it's like I get so tired of being, you know, the only black woman in this situation, but I have a right to belong here. I have the training and clearly love this discipline. I'm doing everything my white male counterparts are doing, but you know, I look different. Yet I belong here. This discipline should not be homogenous at all, and there's a reason why we need diverse voices, and we don't even need to go there with how some people got.
To where they are with legacies, their whole networks of families, connections. We can't even criticize fairly person of color, assume that they only got to where they are because of affirmative action or some extra hand, these old tropes and arguments. But I've seen the weight it can cast on professionals, though, who are frankly like cranky to this day because they've had to battle so much, and it does, it gets to you, and some of what's helped me. So I watched my parents their whole career bust stereotypes and especially my father, really bring a strong voice to the African American experience, the richness of what we bring to academic environments, to society, really sharing with people what it's like when your culture comes here.
Slaves and to achieve everything that we have. And so there's absolutely no reason why we don't belong at the proverbial table. So I think that helped me through time. You just have to brush things off, right? You do. And people can think or say what they might be assuming, but you can't internalize it.
But I do recognize. Especially when one is starting their career, how that can burden them. But I think there are a lot of spaces these days to be vocal, to talk it through, to find others who might be going through similar things. And I just never want to see it deter, derail. Or young scientists, even though I had great family role models, they weren't in geoscience.
And I'm dealing with all of these really kind of strange situations on a mountaintop in Alaska and on a ship in the Japan Sea. And even though it appealed to my sense of adventure, there was not much in my background to like really prepare me to handle things that come up in those situations where you're in an odd place.
You know, and you're really the only one like you. It's easy to question if you belong.
[00:13:12] EMILIA: These are such valuable insights, and as you know, here on Science Wise, we love to be inspired by our role models and our science aunties. And this actually brings us to another question that was submitted anonymously.
[00:13:24] RORI: This listener asked, who were your science aunties or uncles, and how did they lift you up in your career? Here's what Dr. Maria Oribe had to say about it.
[00:13:33] MARIA O: There's a population geneticist, an evolutionary biologist named Joe Graves, Joseph Graves. I think Joe is like 10 years more senior than me, so he is not quite like a whole scientific generation ahead.
And I met him originally because some of his early work was on the evolution of senescence in Drosophila. One of my thesis chapters looks at the evolution of senescence in organisms that have complex life histories. We sort of corresponded on the evolution of aging stuff early on. I know Joe scientifically, but then I sort of just knew him. He's a black scientist. He's had his, his own experience, and we served together on an advisory board for the National Evolutionary Synthesis Center. We spent a lot of time together then and other times during the time when I really wanted to become full, but I wasn't, you know, Joe was like the supportive person
[00:14:19] RORI: mm-hmm.
[00:14:19] MARIA O: Who was like, yes, you're right. You do need to do more stuff. And in fact, you might need to do a little extra on top of what you think because you've gotta convince them, you know, you, you're, you've gotta really convince them that you've, that you've got all this, but you'll do this. You are going to do this.
And with every so often we'd see each other and was always supportive. He wrote letters of recommendation for me for various things. The day I got my full professor thing, I screenshotted, you know, the thing, and I sent him an email, and I'm like, there it is. And he's like, I knew it would happen. He was so solidly in my camp always.
It feels good to know that there's a person who has, knows what it is to sort of like, not always get things the way you want. I mean, he's had a really different world, um, than me, and he continues to have a different world than me, but he always is like, I believe in you. He was thoughtful about it and strategic in helping me think about what it takes to be a full professor.
When you have people who believe in you, that makes the hugest difference.
[00:15:14] EMILIA: Thank you, Maria Oribe. I think it's super important to have peer mentors that just keep us on track.
[00:15:19] RORI: Like you, Emilia, you're one of my peer mentors
[00:15:22] EMILIA: Like you, Rori, you're one of my peer mentors.
[00:15:25] RORI: Emilia, you know, we are legit like super lucky to have each other in our relationship, and it's something that we work at too, but there are times when people feel very, very much undermined or not supported.
[00:15:34] EMILIA: Yeah. And from peers.
[00:15:36] RORI: So this brings us to the next question that's from an anonymous PhD student, and I'm gonna read this question. Over the past several years, I have dealt with a colleague that has treated me as if I was less than, although this colleague and I were friends or so, I thought there would be instances where he would treat me in a way that would make me feel really shitty.
For example, excluding me from meetings regarding a project that we were both on, removing equipment from my desk without asking, and refusing to share data with me, that our collaborative group agreed that he would share. Oftentimes, I would dismiss my feelings because I thought that I was being sensitive.
Over time, I realized that that was not the case. This colleague was being sexist towards me. Eventually, I got the courage to address this colleague and the way I was being treated in a meeting, and my thesis advisor was there. I was empowered to speak up for myself. However, I felt disheartened when nothing changed.
He's still not sharing data with me. Oftentimes, people highlight how speaking up is the first step to improving unjust situations in the workplace. What are other ways to feel empowered when your voice is not enough to improve your situation? Also, what steps should we take and where should we look to find support beyond the stage of quote unquote speaking up?
It can be exhausting to work yourself up to take that first step. Where do you find the energy to continue when that first step changes? Nothing.
[00:16:46] EMILIA: That's challenging.
[00:16:47] RORI: Really hard.
[00:16:48] EMILIA: There are some approaches that I think could be helpful, and here, of course, we don't have all the information, but based on my reading of this, I think there's some research misconduct happening because the data is not being shared
[00:17:00] RORI: As per the agreement.
[00:17:01] EMILIA: For instance, institutions often have an office that deals with research misconduct, so I think that could be a place where some of this can be brought up.
[00:17:10] RORI: So you're talking about formal documentation and reporting?
[00:17:13] EMILIA: Yes. I think documenting everything that is happening regularly. The other thing that I note here is that this has been happening for several years.
[00:17:21] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:22] EMILIA: And so it's important whether this is the research misconduct office, I think it needs to be reported regularly, so that HR can then take this on.
[00:17:30] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:31] EMILIA: And they can take some action against this person,
[00:17:33] RORI: And ideally, the PI would help with the reporting. But it sounds like in this case, the thesis advisor did not help with the reporting.
[00:17:41] EMILIA: It's unclear what the PI is doing or how they're helping or managing the situation, and so I would encourage the student to talk to the PI, but if the PI, it's not helping with the situation, I think the student can go to report these things on their own.
[00:17:56] RORI: Especially if it's blocking your progress towards your thesis.
[00:17:59] EMILIA: Yeah, if it's sexist, that's not allowed. This is also something that needs to be documented and reported, and it might take. It might not be fixed immediately, but once there's a pattern of behavior, then something can, an action can be taken.
[00:18:13] RORI: I would say that sometimes these processes, though, are like so slow.
[00:18:17] EMILIA: Yeah.
[00:18:17] RORI: And the official process requires so much effort and is so slow. So I think it is really important that the student raises a question: how do you find the energy to continue when you don't see progress? Some self-care and preservation is part of how to navigate these situations, too. And I'm sorry to say, but sometimes we need to make choices about where we're gonna put our energy, what will actually serve us, will help us, and what is gonna be a drain.
[00:18:40] EMILIA: Also, another thing that we've learned from our guests is that we need to collaborate with good people.
[00:18:45] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:45] EMILIA: Or people who are nice.
[00:18:46] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:46] EMILIA: It sounds like this person is not a good collaborator, and so I would ask the student also to consider whether they want to continue working on this specific project.
[00:18:55] RORI: Right. Of course, students don't always have, say, when you're in a trainee position, you don't always get to choose all of your collaborators.
[00:19:01] EMILIA: That's correct. But I assume the PI has lots of projects that they can work on, or they can help the student devise coming up with a project that is within the interest of the lab to to pursue that. This is a tough situation, and I think nobody wants to be working with people who are constantly bullying you or treating you badly. It's a toxic environment.
[00:19:20] RORI: I empathize with this student, and I feel really sad that the student is in this situation. I hope that it's improved since then.
It makes sense in these situations to feel like super disheartened, super disempowered. And we have one question about how you recover from that situation. This last question is from Marisa, a med school student.
[00:19:39] MARISA: Hello, my name is Marisa. I'm a former student and mentee of one of the amazing co-hosts of the podcast, Dr. Rohlfs. Thank you both for putting together such an incredible podcast for all of us emerging scientists. The question I wanted to ask the panel is. If you feel comfortable sharing, could you tell us about a time where you felt disempowered in your work, either disbelieved or dismissed about a cause or project you felt was important, and what or where did you turn to, to refill your cup or renew your motivation?
[00:20:04] MARIA O: I wanted to share a story there. I was collaborating with a group. We were working on something and, and things were going pretty good, and an opportunity arose to contribute something to an edited volume.
[00:20:14] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:15] MARIA O: And the most senior person in the group went to a colleague of mine and gave them this opportunity, and then like a year or two later, we were talking about this, and I said, yes you know, I would've loved to have been part of that, or something like that. And he said to me, Oh, well, I, I thought about it, but you just had your baby and I figured you didn't have time. Ooh, the part that was disempowering or upsetting or just like really discombobulating, was it that the colleague he offered it to had also just had a child?
[00:20:41] RORI: Oh,
[00:20:42] MARIA O: It was a male colleague. And maybe he was thinking, you know, that person, you know, isn't gonna be, I don't know, I don't know what his exact thinking was. I said, Oh, that's too bad. You know, there was this like good opportunity that would've helped me at that point in my career quite a bit. And they just dismissed me because I had a little baby, and I was like Dang! The person who got the opportunity is also someone I like, so there's no, I'm not like, oh, it should have been me and not that person, but the reason for it was upsetting, and it felt really unjust, and I felt really hurt.
[00:21:07] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:07] MARIA O: And you know, the rest of the question is, well, how did you fill up your cup or regain your motivation?
I have to say that the one thing that came out of that was I, I told myself, I will never do that. I will never assume that because a person is caregiving or has been ill or can't do this, that they cannot; I will let them tell me.
[00:21:27] RORI: Oh, thank you, Dr. Maria. Oribe. I really appreciate thinking about in the long term, at least in the long term, what we can do to stay empowered.
Our last question is a little bit different. And brings us to a little bit of a lighter story.
This question from an anonymous listener is, what were some of your quote-unquote flukes?
[00:21:45] EMILIA: So when this person is talking about flukes, they mean unexpected things that happened that let you go in a specific direction.
[00:21:52] RORI: Actually, this listener knows Emilia and, as an example, shared a story about when they were kind of in between things and looking for work. And Emilia, you had just offhandedly say like, oh, you might consider getting one of these lecturer jobs, and the person thought, nah, that's not what I'm interested in, that's not what I wanna do. But then finally he put in a resume, and now he's actually a full-time, that's his full-time job.
[00:22:17] EMILIA: I remember this listener. I'm so happy that that fluke worked out.
[00:22:22] RORI: So let's hear about Dawn Wright's fluke.
[00:22:24] DAWN W: I think about this question in terms of serendipity. Probably the biggest situation that comes to mind was when I had finished my PhD and I had, I had been asked actually, to apply for a job at Oregon State.
They encouraged me to apply because this was, at the time, a blended geography and geology department, and my degree was a blend of geography and geology. And they also had not hired an assistant professor in 12 years, and they finally had gotten a faculty line, and they were looking for a good candidate.
So I did apply, but I was also, as I was finishing up my dissertation, I was taking quite a bit of time to do some mountain biking. I had taken up the sport, and I was really enjoying doing it. And I had made friends with a couple of graduate students in geology who knew this amazing place to mountain bike up in the hills above Santa Barbara and so I took the time to, uh, one weekend to go up to Little Pine Mountain, which is a, a a, a famous place there for rat mountain biking. I had actually got into an accident up, and almost got killed.
[00:23:32] EMILIA: Oh God.
[00:23:32] DAWN W: So that was, that was a bit of a, a fluke. I was actually helicoptered medevaced out of the, the Santa Barbara backcountry.
[00:23:39] EMILIA: Whoa.
[00:23:39] DAWN W: And I had torn some ligaments in my shoulder and my knee, and I was pretty scratched up, at any rate, I was in no condition to do my interview.
[00:23:48] RORI: Oh, for OSU? Yeah, definitely not.
[00:23:51] DAWN W: So I had to tell them that I couldn't make it, and could we please reschedule? And I thought I had blown it. I thought, oh my goodness, here's my chance at a great tenure track faculty position, and I've gotten into this accident, and maybe they'll think differently of me, or maybe there won't be, maybe the, the scheduling will not go right and I won't be able to get this process finished and get this job.
[00:24:10] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:11] DAWN W: And it turned out that was not the case. This was a bit of a fluke in terms of of having that accident but it, but it got turned around into something really amazing.
[00:24:20] RORI: Okay.
[00:24:21] DAWN W: They were able to reschedule, and when I came to campus, uh, the story of my experience had grown to legend status among the graduate students.
[00:24:31] RORI: Oh God. And they're like, she's not only the best marine geologist, but she's like a sick mountain biker.
[00:24:37] DAWN W: She survived this mountain. We want to hire her.
[00:24:41] RORI: Oh my God.
[00:24:42] DAWN W: And I did, of course, get hired, but uh, it turned out to be such a feather in, in the cap, such a positive thing that I thought had almost destroyed my chance to start my academic career.
[00:24:54] RORI: That's a great story. Thank you for sharing it.
[00:24:56] EMILIA: And I'm glad that everything went okay.
[00:24:58] RORI: Whoa, that is wild. What a wild ride and what a kind of unintentional show of badassery.
[00:25:04] EMILIA: That's so impressive. Not only is she like so good at what she does in science, but she's also like a superb athlete. I mean, mountain biking
[00:25:13] RORI: Adventure Summit, every turn without even trying.
[00:25:15] EMILIA: Well, huge thanks to you, listeners, for staying with us and for sharing your questions.
[00:25:21] RORI: And thank you to the guests who answered these questions and shared so much wisdom through the entire Season Two. We really hope that you all enjoyed Season Two of Science Wise.
[00:25:29] EMILIA: I hope we can come back for season three. I think all people in science know about all the uncertainty that's happening right now.
[00:25:37] RORI: Yeah, pending the federal funding situation. We hope to be back.
If you would like Science Wise to come back, then write to us we're Science Wise [email protected]. And tell us what you would like to learn from Science Wise.
[00:25:50] EMILIA: Regardless of what happens in season three, it's been such a joy to collaborate with Rori, to be able to bring the stories, to share the stories of these amazing scientists.
[00:25:59] RORI: Ugh, they're so inspiring.
[00:26:01] EMILIA: They are, and I've learned so much from them.
[00:26:03] RORI: So grateful to them for sharing their wisdom, Emilia, I love doing this project with you. It's a real joy, and I hope we can do more,
[00:26:10] EMILIA: And we would love to hear what you thought about season two. So please, if you liked an episode, write us a review.
[00:26:15] RORI: Thank you so much, everybody.
This episode was produced by Maribel Quezada Smith. Sound Engineering by Keegan Stromberg. Special thanks to all of our Science Wise guests and listeners. The hosts of Science Wise are Emilia Huerta-Sanchez and me, Rori Rohlfs.
[00:00:04] EMILIA: Oh my God, I can't believe this is the end of season two. So we thought that it would be a great idea to use the experts that we interviewed to answer some of your questions.
[00:00:14] RORI: So this is Science Wise, where we talk to scientists with decades of experience to learn from their wisdom.
I'm Rori Rohlfs, associate Professor of Data Science at the University of Oregon.
[00:00:23] EMILIA: And I'm Emilia Huerta-Sanchez, associate professor at Brown University in ecology, evolution, and organismal biology.
[00:00:35] RORI: Emilia, we interviewed so many rad scientists this season.
[00:00:39] EMILIA: Yeah.
[00:00:40] RORI: Oh my gosh.
Starting with Dr. Maria Oribe, an incredible scientist who studies phylogenetics of different species, and who created amazing programs at the University of Kansas for faculty and for students.
[00:00:51] EMILIA: Dr. Lisa White, who has created also so many cool programs for undergrads to experience the natural beauty of this earth
[00:00:58] RORI: And who studies fossils.
And then Dr. Joann Trejo, who does incredible molecular biology work. She's like one of the most funded people at her university, plus she runs all of these programs to improve a sense of belonging in science.
[00:01:11] EMILIA: And Dr. Mary Jo Ondrechen, who is a chemist
[00:01:16] RORI: who used machine learning for computational chemistry way before it was cool.
[00:01:20] EMILIA: Even though she didn't ask for it, she couldn't be a bio major, but she eventually ended up doing so many contributions to biology.
[00:01:27] RORI: Dr. Barbara Wakimoto, a very cool geneticist who liked to study very difficult problems and who made major changes at her university, the University of Washington,
[00:01:35] EMILIA: and Dr. Pilar Osorio, who is, oh my God, a lawyer, a scientist.
[00:01:40] RORI: So ethicist, ethicist,
[00:01:41] EMILIA: bioethicist. I mean, she's amazing.
[00:01:44] RORI: Making it all happen. Dr. Dawn Wright, who, I mean, I still can't get over. I'm like, oh my God. She like descended to the Challenger Deep. It's amazing. Not only is she like an incredible explorer and marine geologist, but she does so much to open the doors of science more widely
[00:02:00] EMILIA: and to get people really inspired about mapping the sea floor.
Dr. Anne Stone, a biological anthropologist who's done so many contributions humans in primates about infectious diseases.
[00:02:14] RORI: Yeah, it's a very impressive and prestigious bunch. We've got like multiple National Academy members.
[00:02:19] EMILIA: Oh yeah.
[00:02:19] RORI: Multiple Broad prize winners. It's like a very impressive group of people, and we're so lucky that they answered some listener questions.
So we're going to go through those now for our wrap-up. So the first question was submitted by a statistics instructor, and the question is, what are some of your biggest failures in quotes, missteps in quotes, or setbacks? Quote, we're gonna hear from Dr. Joann Trejo about her greatest quote-unquote failures.
[00:02:44] JOANN T: I think this is more related to being a little bit naive in, in science. So when I was at, um, a postdoc, I was offered the opportunity to work on, when I first joined the lab to work on some of the. The knockouts, the mouse knockouts of these receptors and different receptors and so on and so forth, and I decided not to do that because I didn't believe it would work, which was me.
I never talked to anybody about that. I never really got advice on whether this would be the best project to move forward or not. And yeah, I was skeptical in retrospect. I, I wish I had been involved in those studies because they were like, the first evidence that these receptors are the receptors for thrombin, which is the major clotting factor that we had, was a huge finding.
And I, I think the lesson learned there is you don't wanna close any doors. You always wanna keep all your options open. You wanna have plan A, plan B, plan C, and plan T is what I tell them. And to be proactive. If someone is offering you a project or has an idea to really think about it and not to make a decision with limited information is to try to get as much information as you can and try to talk to people who are really experts in this area to help give advice.
When I was growing up as a scientist, it was not as transparent, I guess is one word I would say, or it wasn't as easy to communicate. I mean, people on social media get advice all the time. People just use it as an as a platform to get technical advice, career advice, and people connect with each other and collaborate.
There are really a, a lot of benefits for having a platform like that now. So I think it is important to think deeply and try to get more information before making a decision, because I basically closed the door and I shouldn't have, I should have left it open, you know?
[00:04:44] RORI: I see. Dr. Trejo is so incredibly accomplished, and she sees that she could have made this additional contribution to science, and she's disappointed that she didn't get to do that, which makes so much sense.
I see what she's saying, that she wished that she had more information before she decided to close the door on that opportunity, and I appreciate that. It makes sense to. Be well prepared before we make these decisions. At the same time, we are all going to miss some opportunities and we are all going to misjudge some opportunities.
So it feels like in retrospect, it's something that you can wish you did differently, and it's something that, you know, we can also be at peace with the fact that we, we can't take full advantage of everything 'cause we don't have all the information ahead of time.
[00:05:22] EMILIA: I think it's really difficult to have foresight and there's always lots of choices, and sometimes we're gonna, we're going to miss out, and sometimes we're not.
[00:05:31] RORI: So we have another question here. This is from Janice, a PhD student in quantitative and population genetics, and she will tell us in her own words.
[00:05:39] JANICE: Hi, Rori and Emilia. Thank you for making this podcast. As an Asian female PhD student who wants to pursue an academic career. I have some uncertainties about my future.
I have heard judgmental comments on minoritized scientists, such as you can't trust a PI who got their chance by being a minority, and it was a surprise that a female pre-PhD student made this to a female minority PI. I have also heard comments made toward a general Asian female scientist, especially to PIs, that we are picky and harsh, which is what is spread out in the Asian community.
It was disappointing to me because in these cases, people can trust those with similar backgrounds as them, like being women, Asians, etc., to be capable as scientists and be nice to others. And as a result, more students are likely to work with those with privileges because that's my insurer better advisory and networking and know that we've struggled a lot to survive and thrive in science, but it seems that living an impression to the general public that we are having a life that does not belong to us and we can't live well.
Do you have any suggestions for these situations, and how do you manage to let people trust your ability in swimming and science?
[00:06:48] RORI: For this one, we're going to hear answers from two scientists from Dr. Barbara Wakimoto and Dr. Lisa White. First, here's Barbara.
[00:06:55] BARBARA W: Wow. I have to say I really love this question.
I can identify with it and thank you, 'cause this idea about an Asian female in science and the idea that there are so many stereotypes, right? And also, uh, sometimes it happens to me, every time I have to check one of those little boxes, it says Hispanic, non-Hispanic, Asian, Caucasian, or whatever, and they lump us into these boxes. And I understand counting reasons they do that, but als,o people don't realize how diverse Asians are. Oh yeah. We're trying to fix that, but wow. It could be the Asian immigrants from so many different countries where the Asian Americans had totally different cultural upbringings and connections, their family, heritage, and traditions. Their mannerisms. What's respected, what's demanded in our families is just very different. I've faced it, it's interesting 'cause I was raised in Phoenix with no Asians and then I came to the University of Washington, where there are lots of Asian undergraduate women that said to me, you're the first Asian professor we've had.
[00:07:15] RORI: Wow.
[00:07:16] BARBARA W: In my field. And I was really surprised, but I thought, okay, what can I do to help them? And part of it is because you realize, I guess, it's just human nature to stereotype people. And they often people don't look at the individuals and we've got to really work hard no matter what we look like or what we're doing or what we end up promoting, to break down those stereotypes.
The only thing I can say is encouragement. In that, when I was faced with this, my, one of my mentors in this department, she was retired at the time, when I would complain about how women were treated and not, we weren't. Given our credit for ideas, she would just shake her head and I still hear her voice on my shoulder, she would say, Barbara, it's a good thing you're an educator because we've got a lot of educating to do and for some reason, that calmed me down. And I thought, it's not my problem, but it is my responsibility to try to educate you.
[00:08:50] RORI: That's a gift you gave her.
[00:08:50] BARBARA W: You have to do it in a manner that's is very respectful, even as hard as it is, and you hope you make some sort of inwards too. And I remember a faculty meeting where I, the behavior of some men were horrible, and I caught them individually walking to, to the building and I, and I told them individually, not in front of a crowd. I said, No, you can't treat women like that. I know there's not any magic solutions you like to snap your fingers in, adjust things, but I think you have to really think of it as a very long-term mission that we have, and try not to take it personally, and some people you are never going to change.
[00:09:27] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:28] BARBARA W: You can just change your reaction to them.
[00:09:30] RORI: Thank you very much, Barbara. And here is Lisa White's take,
[00:09:34] LISA W: I will speak to one that it made me angry when I first read it, and that's fine. That's a good thing because we need to be reminded that there.
There are so many situations just filled with the worst of stereotypes about the achievement of folks of color in STEM, women in STEM, that, you know, are part of the reasons I know too, that motivate us and the work we do, and especially in participating in this podcast. So this is me, you know, 34 years into the profession, answering this.
Where I've accomplished so much now that I hardly even pay attention to what people might be thinking or I don't even assume that they are thinking that, you know, I've heard what people think for years in my career and it used to bother me, but I never felt like I didn't belong. You know, there were days when frustrated, it's like I get so tired of being, you know, the only black woman in this situation, but I have a right to belong here. I have the training and clearly love this discipline. I'm doing everything my white male counterparts are doing, but you know, I look different. Yet I belong here. This discipline should not be homogenous at all, and there's a reason why we need diverse voices, and we don't even need to go there with how some people got.
To where they are with legacies, their whole networks of families, connections. We can't even criticize fairly person of color, assume that they only got to where they are because of affirmative action or some extra hand, these old tropes and arguments. But I've seen the weight it can cast on professionals, though, who are frankly like cranky to this day because they've had to battle so much, and it does, it gets to you, and some of what's helped me. So I watched my parents their whole career bust stereotypes and especially my father, really bring a strong voice to the African American experience, the richness of what we bring to academic environments, to society, really sharing with people what it's like when your culture comes here.
Slaves and to achieve everything that we have. And so there's absolutely no reason why we don't belong at the proverbial table. So I think that helped me through time. You just have to brush things off, right? You do. And people can think or say what they might be assuming, but you can't internalize it.
But I do recognize. Especially when one is starting their career, how that can burden them. But I think there are a lot of spaces these days to be vocal, to talk it through, to find others who might be going through similar things. And I just never want to see it deter, derail. Or young scientists, even though I had great family role models, they weren't in geoscience.
And I'm dealing with all of these really kind of strange situations on a mountaintop in Alaska and on a ship in the Japan Sea. And even though it appealed to my sense of adventure, there was not much in my background to like really prepare me to handle things that come up in those situations where you're in an odd place.
You know, and you're really the only one like you. It's easy to question if you belong.
[00:13:12] EMILIA: These are such valuable insights, and as you know, here on Science Wise, we love to be inspired by our role models and our science aunties. And this actually brings us to another question that was submitted anonymously.
[00:13:24] RORI: This listener asked, who were your science aunties or uncles, and how did they lift you up in your career? Here's what Dr. Maria Oribe had to say about it.
[00:13:33] MARIA O: There's a population geneticist, an evolutionary biologist named Joe Graves, Joseph Graves. I think Joe is like 10 years more senior than me, so he is not quite like a whole scientific generation ahead.
And I met him originally because some of his early work was on the evolution of senescence in Drosophila. One of my thesis chapters looks at the evolution of senescence in organisms that have complex life histories. We sort of corresponded on the evolution of aging stuff early on. I know Joe scientifically, but then I sort of just knew him. He's a black scientist. He's had his, his own experience, and we served together on an advisory board for the National Evolutionary Synthesis Center. We spent a lot of time together then and other times during the time when I really wanted to become full, but I wasn't, you know, Joe was like the supportive person
[00:14:19] RORI: mm-hmm.
[00:14:19] MARIA O: Who was like, yes, you're right. You do need to do more stuff. And in fact, you might need to do a little extra on top of what you think because you've gotta convince them, you know, you, you're, you've gotta really convince them that you've, that you've got all this, but you'll do this. You are going to do this.
And with every so often we'd see each other and was always supportive. He wrote letters of recommendation for me for various things. The day I got my full professor thing, I screenshotted, you know, the thing, and I sent him an email, and I'm like, there it is. And he's like, I knew it would happen. He was so solidly in my camp always.
It feels good to know that there's a person who has, knows what it is to sort of like, not always get things the way you want. I mean, he's had a really different world, um, than me, and he continues to have a different world than me, but he always is like, I believe in you. He was thoughtful about it and strategic in helping me think about what it takes to be a full professor.
When you have people who believe in you, that makes the hugest difference.
[00:15:14] EMILIA: Thank you, Maria Oribe. I think it's super important to have peer mentors that just keep us on track.
[00:15:19] RORI: Like you, Emilia, you're one of my peer mentors
[00:15:22] EMILIA: Like you, Rori, you're one of my peer mentors.
[00:15:25] RORI: Emilia, you know, we are legit like super lucky to have each other in our relationship, and it's something that we work at too, but there are times when people feel very, very much undermined or not supported.
[00:15:34] EMILIA: Yeah. And from peers.
[00:15:36] RORI: So this brings us to the next question that's from an anonymous PhD student, and I'm gonna read this question. Over the past several years, I have dealt with a colleague that has treated me as if I was less than, although this colleague and I were friends or so, I thought there would be instances where he would treat me in a way that would make me feel really shitty.
For example, excluding me from meetings regarding a project that we were both on, removing equipment from my desk without asking, and refusing to share data with me, that our collaborative group agreed that he would share. Oftentimes, I would dismiss my feelings because I thought that I was being sensitive.
Over time, I realized that that was not the case. This colleague was being sexist towards me. Eventually, I got the courage to address this colleague and the way I was being treated in a meeting, and my thesis advisor was there. I was empowered to speak up for myself. However, I felt disheartened when nothing changed.
He's still not sharing data with me. Oftentimes, people highlight how speaking up is the first step to improving unjust situations in the workplace. What are other ways to feel empowered when your voice is not enough to improve your situation? Also, what steps should we take and where should we look to find support beyond the stage of quote unquote speaking up?
It can be exhausting to work yourself up to take that first step. Where do you find the energy to continue when that first step changes? Nothing.
[00:16:46] EMILIA: That's challenging.
[00:16:47] RORI: Really hard.
[00:16:48] EMILIA: There are some approaches that I think could be helpful, and here, of course, we don't have all the information, but based on my reading of this, I think there's some research misconduct happening because the data is not being shared
[00:17:00] RORI: As per the agreement.
[00:17:01] EMILIA: For instance, institutions often have an office that deals with research misconduct, so I think that could be a place where some of this can be brought up.
[00:17:10] RORI: So you're talking about formal documentation and reporting?
[00:17:13] EMILIA: Yes. I think documenting everything that is happening regularly. The other thing that I note here is that this has been happening for several years.
[00:17:21] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:22] EMILIA: And so it's important whether this is the research misconduct office, I think it needs to be reported regularly, so that HR can then take this on.
[00:17:30] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:31] EMILIA: And they can take some action against this person,
[00:17:33] RORI: And ideally, the PI would help with the reporting. But it sounds like in this case, the thesis advisor did not help with the reporting.
[00:17:41] EMILIA: It's unclear what the PI is doing or how they're helping or managing the situation, and so I would encourage the student to talk to the PI, but if the PI, it's not helping with the situation, I think the student can go to report these things on their own.
[00:17:56] RORI: Especially if it's blocking your progress towards your thesis.
[00:17:59] EMILIA: Yeah, if it's sexist, that's not allowed. This is also something that needs to be documented and reported, and it might take. It might not be fixed immediately, but once there's a pattern of behavior, then something can, an action can be taken.
[00:18:13] RORI: I would say that sometimes these processes, though, are like so slow.
[00:18:17] EMILIA: Yeah.
[00:18:17] RORI: And the official process requires so much effort and is so slow. So I think it is really important that the student raises a question: how do you find the energy to continue when you don't see progress? Some self-care and preservation is part of how to navigate these situations, too. And I'm sorry to say, but sometimes we need to make choices about where we're gonna put our energy, what will actually serve us, will help us, and what is gonna be a drain.
[00:18:40] EMILIA: Also, another thing that we've learned from our guests is that we need to collaborate with good people.
[00:18:45] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:45] EMILIA: Or people who are nice.
[00:18:46] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:46] EMILIA: It sounds like this person is not a good collaborator, and so I would ask the student also to consider whether they want to continue working on this specific project.
[00:18:55] RORI: Right. Of course, students don't always have, say, when you're in a trainee position, you don't always get to choose all of your collaborators.
[00:19:01] EMILIA: That's correct. But I assume the PI has lots of projects that they can work on, or they can help the student devise coming up with a project that is within the interest of the lab to to pursue that. This is a tough situation, and I think nobody wants to be working with people who are constantly bullying you or treating you badly. It's a toxic environment.
[00:19:20] RORI: I empathize with this student, and I feel really sad that the student is in this situation. I hope that it's improved since then.
It makes sense in these situations to feel like super disheartened, super disempowered. And we have one question about how you recover from that situation. This last question is from Marisa, a med school student.
[00:19:39] MARISA: Hello, my name is Marisa. I'm a former student and mentee of one of the amazing co-hosts of the podcast, Dr. Rohlfs. Thank you both for putting together such an incredible podcast for all of us emerging scientists. The question I wanted to ask the panel is. If you feel comfortable sharing, could you tell us about a time where you felt disempowered in your work, either disbelieved or dismissed about a cause or project you felt was important, and what or where did you turn to, to refill your cup or renew your motivation?
[00:20:04] MARIA O: I wanted to share a story there. I was collaborating with a group. We were working on something and, and things were going pretty good, and an opportunity arose to contribute something to an edited volume.
[00:20:14] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:15] MARIA O: And the most senior person in the group went to a colleague of mine and gave them this opportunity, and then like a year or two later, we were talking about this, and I said, yes you know, I would've loved to have been part of that, or something like that. And he said to me, Oh, well, I, I thought about it, but you just had your baby and I figured you didn't have time. Ooh, the part that was disempowering or upsetting or just like really discombobulating, was it that the colleague he offered it to had also just had a child?
[00:20:41] RORI: Oh,
[00:20:42] MARIA O: It was a male colleague. And maybe he was thinking, you know, that person, you know, isn't gonna be, I don't know, I don't know what his exact thinking was. I said, Oh, that's too bad. You know, there was this like good opportunity that would've helped me at that point in my career quite a bit. And they just dismissed me because I had a little baby, and I was like Dang! The person who got the opportunity is also someone I like, so there's no, I'm not like, oh, it should have been me and not that person, but the reason for it was upsetting, and it felt really unjust, and I felt really hurt.
[00:21:07] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:07] MARIA O: And you know, the rest of the question is, well, how did you fill up your cup or regain your motivation?
I have to say that the one thing that came out of that was I, I told myself, I will never do that. I will never assume that because a person is caregiving or has been ill or can't do this, that they cannot; I will let them tell me.
[00:21:27] RORI: Oh, thank you, Dr. Maria. Oribe. I really appreciate thinking about in the long term, at least in the long term, what we can do to stay empowered.
Our last question is a little bit different. And brings us to a little bit of a lighter story.
This question from an anonymous listener is, what were some of your quote-unquote flukes?
[00:21:45] EMILIA: So when this person is talking about flukes, they mean unexpected things that happened that let you go in a specific direction.
[00:21:52] RORI: Actually, this listener knows Emilia and, as an example, shared a story about when they were kind of in between things and looking for work. And Emilia, you had just offhandedly say like, oh, you might consider getting one of these lecturer jobs, and the person thought, nah, that's not what I'm interested in, that's not what I wanna do. But then finally he put in a resume, and now he's actually a full-time, that's his full-time job.
[00:22:17] EMILIA: I remember this listener. I'm so happy that that fluke worked out.
[00:22:22] RORI: So let's hear about Dawn Wright's fluke.
[00:22:24] DAWN W: I think about this question in terms of serendipity. Probably the biggest situation that comes to mind was when I had finished my PhD and I had, I had been asked actually, to apply for a job at Oregon State.
They encouraged me to apply because this was, at the time, a blended geography and geology department, and my degree was a blend of geography and geology. And they also had not hired an assistant professor in 12 years, and they finally had gotten a faculty line, and they were looking for a good candidate.
So I did apply, but I was also, as I was finishing up my dissertation, I was taking quite a bit of time to do some mountain biking. I had taken up the sport, and I was really enjoying doing it. And I had made friends with a couple of graduate students in geology who knew this amazing place to mountain bike up in the hills above Santa Barbara and so I took the time to, uh, one weekend to go up to Little Pine Mountain, which is a, a a, a famous place there for rat mountain biking. I had actually got into an accident up, and almost got killed.
[00:23:32] EMILIA: Oh God.
[00:23:32] DAWN W: So that was, that was a bit of a, a fluke. I was actually helicoptered medevaced out of the, the Santa Barbara backcountry.
[00:23:39] EMILIA: Whoa.
[00:23:39] DAWN W: And I had torn some ligaments in my shoulder and my knee, and I was pretty scratched up, at any rate, I was in no condition to do my interview.
[00:23:48] RORI: Oh, for OSU? Yeah, definitely not.
[00:23:51] DAWN W: So I had to tell them that I couldn't make it, and could we please reschedule? And I thought I had blown it. I thought, oh my goodness, here's my chance at a great tenure track faculty position, and I've gotten into this accident, and maybe they'll think differently of me, or maybe there won't be, maybe the, the scheduling will not go right and I won't be able to get this process finished and get this job.
[00:24:10] RORI: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:11] DAWN W: And it turned out that was not the case. This was a bit of a fluke in terms of of having that accident but it, but it got turned around into something really amazing.
[00:24:20] RORI: Okay.
[00:24:21] DAWN W: They were able to reschedule, and when I came to campus, uh, the story of my experience had grown to legend status among the graduate students.
[00:24:31] RORI: Oh God. And they're like, she's not only the best marine geologist, but she's like a sick mountain biker.
[00:24:37] DAWN W: She survived this mountain. We want to hire her.
[00:24:41] RORI: Oh my God.
[00:24:42] DAWN W: And I did, of course, get hired, but uh, it turned out to be such a feather in, in the cap, such a positive thing that I thought had almost destroyed my chance to start my academic career.
[00:24:54] RORI: That's a great story. Thank you for sharing it.
[00:24:56] EMILIA: And I'm glad that everything went okay.
[00:24:58] RORI: Whoa, that is wild. What a wild ride and what a kind of unintentional show of badassery.
[00:25:04] EMILIA: That's so impressive. Not only is she like so good at what she does in science, but she's also like a superb athlete. I mean, mountain biking
[00:25:13] RORI: Adventure Summit, every turn without even trying.
[00:25:15] EMILIA: Well, huge thanks to you, listeners, for staying with us and for sharing your questions.
[00:25:21] RORI: And thank you to the guests who answered these questions and shared so much wisdom through the entire Season Two. We really hope that you all enjoyed Season Two of Science Wise.
[00:25:29] EMILIA: I hope we can come back for season three. I think all people in science know about all the uncertainty that's happening right now.
[00:25:37] RORI: Yeah, pending the federal funding situation. We hope to be back.
If you would like Science Wise to come back, then write to us we're Science Wise [email protected]. And tell us what you would like to learn from Science Wise.
[00:25:50] EMILIA: Regardless of what happens in season three, it's been such a joy to collaborate with Rori, to be able to bring the stories, to share the stories of these amazing scientists.
[00:25:59] RORI: Ugh, they're so inspiring.
[00:26:01] EMILIA: They are, and I've learned so much from them.
[00:26:03] RORI: So grateful to them for sharing their wisdom, Emilia, I love doing this project with you. It's a real joy, and I hope we can do more,
[00:26:10] EMILIA: And we would love to hear what you thought about season two. So please, if you liked an episode, write us a review.
[00:26:15] RORI: Thank you so much, everybody.
This episode was produced by Maribel Quezada Smith. Sound Engineering by Keegan Stromberg. Special thanks to all of our Science Wise guests and listeners. The hosts of Science Wise are Emilia Huerta-Sanchez and me, Rori Rohlfs.